lml@lancaironline.net Mailing List Archive

Hi, Jeff,

Thanks for your honest post. We need more of them instead of self-righteous preaching.

I’ve been out of town for four days but before I left there was a thread going about thunderstorm penetrations started by some unfortunate soul just looking for info. He was immediately flamed just for ASKING. Walter explained how one could get into the situation, and what it was like, but your posting actually gave survival techniques, which is all that the questioner wanted.

Like the responder who flew the P-2V, I go back to the 50’s as well. B-47’s in the 50’s, B-52’s in the early 60’s. There were many missions that SAC considered important enough to just grit your teeth and drive straight ahead, regardless. Important stuff, you know, like high or low altitude bomb run practice, celestial legs, ORI’s, etc. Not being blessed with computers and engineering degrees we simply followed orders for other important purposes, like scores and promotions and, oh hell, you get the idea. We didn’t know any better and darn few people did, or cared.

I’ve been in the belly of the beast six to ten times. Hard to define; some are much worse than others. I will add this to the previous postings, though, for what it may be worth to others; be ready for severe disorientation. Up and down drafts, even at 5000 fpm, do not describe the violent shaking and inability to even read your instruments when you are in severe buffeting. EVERYTHING that is not tied down will move somewhere. If you are ever in a really severe thunderstorm you will also be scared witless, which is not the time to be figuring out what to do. With the possible exception of the right speed to give you the best chance, Jeff’s suggestion should be intelligently internalized by every Lancair thunderstorm-avoider out there. I fly a IV and I tend to agree that with high drag, high power one can get away with a lower A/S, but I would lean to 10 degrees of flaps, speed brakes out, gear up and 150 knots. (I have seen 50-knot A/S excursions in the B-52.) Someday, somewhere, for some reason, another Lancair pilot may inadvertently find himself in banging lightning, rattling hail, a BAJA 500 ride with passengers puking and it would be nice to have a plan so you don’t just give up.

The B-52 wingtip, by the way, could flex up and down in a 17 foot arc. You didn’t want to peek. I got struck by lightning once on a low level bomb run in heavy weather and lost about the equivalent of a Lancair wing in fiberglass off the wingtip and radome. Since I don’t have static wicks on my IVP (and the B-52 did!) I am reminded of that near devastation every time I am circumnavigating a storm. Think about that when you are using WX Works to pick your way through a line of cells in IMC.

Is it possible that any of the Lancairs that were lost in thunderstorms might NOT have been if there had been a reasonable discussion that they could have learned from………….like Jeff’s configuration and A/S suggestion, for instance? Engineers?

Carl

From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Davey
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 6:10 AM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Loss of aircraft control

Hello everyone,

I'm Jeff Davey, a long time lurker on the LML.

I hold a comm./inst. ticket, been flying for 40 years, (I'm 50 now, and at age 12 I always had to wake up my dad so he could switch tanks on long x-countries in his Bonanza). He was a B-17 pilot, and taught me all that he knew. I have 1030 hours in mostly high performance singles, and am building a IVP 52%.

I have followed with great interest the discussions about the causes of, and of reducing the high rate of fatal accidents in our aircraft.

I would like to share how I survived my experience flying through two thunder storms, and one forced landing.

I was taught that when entering/experiencing turbulence, get ready to slow down, and fly the plane. With that in mind my first incursion into a thunder storm we did just that. In 1970, was at 12000 over Blythe at night in a Bonanza and got slowly sucked into a real nice storm. Lightning bolts all around , heavy turbulence, some wind shear. We immediately raised the nose, reduced power, slowed down enough to get the gear and flaps down to create as much drag as possible and then back to full power, and flew below maneuvering speed. We mainly flew attitude, needle/ball, with corrections to maintain below maneuvering speed. For about 10 minutes, (seemed like hours) it was a real white knuckle ride. In our case, altitude was TOTALLY irrelevant, and as I recall we gained and lost a few thousand feet in less that a minute.

Second time, in 1982, from Carlsbad to Long Beach, Ca., north bound at 4000, when all of a sudden here I am again, this time in a PA-32. Did the same thing again, gently pulled the nose up to bleed off speed then dumped gear and flaps. Continued to fly attitude, needle/ball, airspeed. This time I was smack in the middle of a micro cell at about a 5000 fpm rate of climb. I told approach what I was doing, and the controller had the gall to instruct me to maintain altitude, yah right. I TOLD him, HE better clear the area above me. Another controller came on, told me to fly the plane and that he would keep an eye on me. Topped out at about 10000, and then bam, into the down draft. It was over in 3 minutes this time.

If this happened today in my IVP, I would immediately, slowly raise the nose to get the speed down, fly the plane, reduce power, start my standard (or slower) rate, 180 degree turn, fly the plane, slow down enough to get the gear and flaps down, speed breaks up, and, did I say, fly the plane!!!. I believe that by keeping the drag as high as possible, AND keeping a high power setting (with all that drag), that you will have much greater elevator authority, and more importantly, greater rudder authority, created by the additional prop thrust, at the slower speed. (Since I have never stalled a IV, what say the experts, please explain where I have errored ) IF?, you are in landing configuration, you really can't be at maneuvering speed, right? I believe gear and flap speeds are much slower than maneuvering speed. IMO, the slower you can get, the lesser the G forces will be. So... would you really want to plow through a TS at maneuvering speed (170 KCAS ?)

Forced landing in 1982: Departed rwy 16(?) from Whitehorse, Yukon, in a PA-32(A SIX this time). For those of you who have visited Whitehorse, you know, to the south there are nothing but trees. Had just topped off the tanks, checked all three sumps, and found NO water. Runup was OK, takeoff was fine. About 400 feet and 1/2 mile past the end of the runway it gets REAL quiet, REAL fast. Since I'm already at Vy, just lower the nose and head for the trees, since there are only trees all around, decide to start a flat 225 degree turn to the left, all the time keeping it pegged at Vy. Of course rudder is trimmed for TO. All of a sudden it gets a small charge of GAS, and talk about P (pucker) factor, going from zero thrust to full power, back to zero thrust in 3 seconds 200 feet over the trees while trying to turn back to the runway while keeping it from falling out of what little sky I have left. 20 degrees of turn to go, down to about 100 feet and get another small shot of gas. Ok, lined up on the 45 with the runway over run, still 1/8 mile out and down to tree top level. Now what to do, Slowly pull back on the stick to keep out of the trees, trading speed for altitude. Pull the first notch of flaps, and the plane immediately jumps up 15 feet. I'm now trading the stored up inertia (energy) of a 3400 lb. brick, with some down force created by the flaps. Another 200 feet and back down to treetops again. Time for another notch of flaps and another 15 feet of altitude. Were about at stall speed now and the last of the 100 foot tall trees zip by us. Gently dive for the over run, start the flair as the stall warning is screaming, and pull in the last notch of flaps. The prop stops on the flair. I thank the good Lord for the training I got, and the skill to properly exercise it. Without the two shots of gas I would have flown into the tops of the trees, got REAL lucky. Without waiting until the last second to drop flaps I would have flown into the tops of the trees. Upon inspection, found a small amount of water in the wing sumps, and lots in the strainer sump. Every time I fuel up now I shake each wing while lifting it up, for 30 seconds to hopefully stir up any water that may be suspended away from the sumps, with the intention of getting the water, if any, to flow down to the sumps.

How would our slick Lancairs do in this situation?? I have an idea that they would do better if properly flown, due to the drag being so much lower. I would invite anyone else, especially the lurkers to share their experience.

? for Brent Regan. The last two accidents, do you know if the aircraft had data recorders, and if so, and if you are involved, what is the possibility of getting the data to us in a timely manner?

My sincere thanks to all the contributors to this great forum. You have, and are continuing to make a positive difference to improve our operational safety.

Jeff