Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #23226
From: George Braly <gwbraly@gami.com>
Sender: Marvin Kaye <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Reply to Re: [LML] Re: Reply to Reply on "lower EGT temps"
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:51:27 -0500
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Scott,
 
 >> My system is not "most", therefore the argument is categorically rejected for lack of experience specifically with LASAR, unless you know something about it that I don't. Note that "a pretty good job" is not good enough, 'cept for spam cans.  
 
Unison states that their magnetos do not produce consistent sparks.  If that is so, only one plug may initiate the the burn with a less than optimal double flame front.  This is exactly why the one Electronic Ignition (EI) - one magneto sytem may perform better than two mags, but not better than two EIs.  <<
Well,  I really think you are adopting a position that is consistent with marketing  information, in that respect, rather than data. 
 
Here is why I hold that opinion:
 
There are LOTS of good things about  well engineered electronic ignitions.  Including those suggested on the PRISM page you imported.
 
But systems that are designed and implemented without a complete understanding of the effects sparks, spark "quality",  and real spark timing on the critical combustion pressure parameters have almost uniformly failed to properly make use of the potential.   I respectfully suggest that includes the LASAR system.   
 
Is it  "better" than just "magnetos" - -  ???  Maybe, maybe not.
 
If the base magneto is a slick mag,  then there are some issues, right there, to start with.    I have about a thousand hours of experience testing Slick mags on four cylinder Lycoming engines doing certification runs for the FAA.   In one 150 hour test,  we experienced failure on about four or five of them.   I am fairly confident  that  we have a excellent  data based understanding of their spark characteristics.  
 
If you are comparing their EI spark "quality"  to their slick mag sparks - - well there is a lot of room for improvement in that case.  But do that same comparison against  a pair of Bendix 1200 mags,  and the room for improvement in the spark "quality" gets to be a lot less in many areas of the operating envelope.  There are clearly some areas where it can do better.
 
In any event, you are making the assumption - - apparently without any data - - that the reason you are seeing lower  EGTs is because you are getting a significantly higher proportion of the combustion events that are more "uniform" as a result of  electronic ignition system operation.  You are assuming that a significant portion of the magneto combustion events do not get a "light off" of two flame fronts - - and that results in the 70d F increase in EGTs from two mags firing verses your two  LASAR units firing.   You are assuming that the proportion of "poor" magneto combustion events is sufficient to account for the upward bias of about 70d F in your observed EGT temperatures.  
 
That assumption is not consistent with  the hard data that occupies a lot of  megabytes on my hard rive.    I freely acknowledge that the issue you raise - - if the mags were truly as bad as you believe they are - -  would be capable of being responsible for some change in the observed EGT delta - - but not 70-90 F,  even using really bad magnetos as a starting point for the comparison.  
 
The most likely explanation for the observed results (decrease in EGTs with LASAR) is that the LASAR system is causing the Theta(pp) to happen closer to TDC than is the magnetos (even on events in which both the magnetos and the LASAR both do a good job of firing the sparks) - - and that is what explains the earlier burn times in the fuel/air charge.
 
Regards,  George
 
PS.  While PRISM will like lower EGTs under  a lot of critical operating conditions (cruise at high power while  LOP, for example),  it will likely RAISE EGTS (for good and proper reasons) under some other critical conditions, such  as in full power at takeoff.
 
That is why I keep asking you if the LASAR system raises or lowers the EGTs at full power and full rich mixture  as compared to  properly timed and set up set of magnetos.   If it does, it is likely doing the wrong thing for your engine at the wrong time.
 
 
******************************************
 
Later, you reply thusly:
 
<<<<<>> 3. Do you mean that the spark energy, shape, duration and consistency is of the same quality for electronic ignitions and magnetos?   <<
 
No.  In some cases, it is worse for electronic ignitions !!   
 
But,  properly done, electronic ignitions can improve on the important aspects of the initiating sparks that start the combustion events.   It just requires that the electronic stuff be originally designed with a really thorough understanding of what is important about the combustion events.   From what I have observed,  this is not always the case.  >>>>>>>>
 
Again, the "NO" would have been adequate.  Of course, you have to qualify it with "some cases", fixed later with "Properly done" and deflated later with "this is not always the case.  Frankly, I am only presently concerned with my case and the data which I am capable of collecting.  I am trying to learn but there is no learning when you try to tell me only how things fail to work.
 
 
********************    I really did mean  what I said.  Some EI system spark events  are worse (for the engine) than some magneto spark events.  *****************
 
 
 >> Well, we shall see from the tests that I am going to run.  BTW, what kind of EGT drops are seen with PRISM?  I know they occur because PRISM claims a "significant" drop.  Unison predicts 70-90 degrees on the LASAR (if I remember correctly).  Maybe this is what Cy meant by "relative." <<  
 
If you don't collect the right data,  then the tests will not shed any new light on the subject.
 
At a minimum,  what needs to be collected to be definitive is the following:
 
1)  TDC measured continuously to  better than 0.5degree resolution;
2)  Internal cylinder pressures sampled at least at the same 0.5degree resolution
3)  High speed measurement of the ACTUAL spark event for each plug, including a measurement of the energy of the sparks;
4)  Computation of the  coefficients of variability of  peak pressure,  Theta(pp),  IMEP;
5)  EGTs  and CHTs;
6)  Fuel flow and MP. 
 
 
What UNISON "predicts"  - - - or has even measured  is not the issue.  The reason is because there are two independant issues   - - and you are failing to deal with the dominent issue of WHEN the spark (actually, not as measured by static timing settings) goes off - - rather than the "quality" of the spark issue.   I submit to you that WHEN the spark goes off is an issue that dramatically overshadows any differences in consistency and/or "quality" of the sparks from EI systems verses Magneto systems.  
 
That is not to say that improvement in the quality and consistency of the spark is not a "good thing".  It is.  It is highly worth while.  But not for the reasons you are suggesting.
 
Regards,  George
 

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