Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #65113
From: Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 15:22:14 +0000
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Hi reading today through The Mazda Papers the Newsletter Volume 6 of Tracy Crook
Interesting on his first rotary engine that was a used 1986 13B with 60 000 miles on he used
MMO ( marvel mystery oil ) from day one. This rotary motor did 856 flight hours before he replaced it with the turbo II 89 model and EC 2 (EFI controller)
He mixed the MMO at 1 ounce per gallon of gasoline ( 128 - 1 ratio )
He also experienced, hot starting issues,more or less on these 850 hours.
At some point he had ran out of MMO and put in standard outboard two stroke oil.
The compression for hot cracking was back and not wanting to compromise on the "cleaning & detergent properties " of MMO he from that point used MMO + two stroke oil in 50-50 mixture

Just thought to throw it in after reading it in the Mazda Papers

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 12:26 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild
 
Coffee?  Now why didn't I think of that??? 

I am pretty sure the engine is tight because of the new bearings I had pressed in.  It was installing and tightening down the rear stationary gear (with its new bearing) that made the engine too tight to turn by hand.  My thought is after a couple hours of break in the bearing will fit better and not be as tight.

I followed your advise about zero gap on the side seals.  So they fit quite snugly in their groves, while being able to move as a unit.  That could also be adding to the tightness and loss of early compression, but if your theory about them quickly being worn down to the right size has any validity, then again I should be in much better shape after a few hours of break-in.

Some extra 2-stroke oil isn't a bad Idea.  I'm gonna start buying that stuff by the 55gal drum I think.  It must be very dear to those who make it.

Thanks for your post!

David Leonard

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:25 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
It is called "Marvel Mystery Oil" because the people that make it don't know what it is either.

Best for cleaning tools that might rust, or that tough grease removing problem.

Dying compression is the usual cause for a "no hot start".....Spinning the engine faster allows less time for compression to leak away and you get a start. In the car always park on a hill. In the race car with a junk yard engine, we towed it a few feet and got a start. If towing was not available 1/2 cup of oil and 1/2 cup of hot coffee in each side of the Weber 48 IDA in cold weather, and I got a start. People would stand in close to see it happen. What? You don't pour coffee in your engine?

The coffee is to add heat and take up volume. Added compression ratio. The oil is to seal the engine for a few revolutions.

If this problem came on over time, I would not suspect an electrical fault. In the compression measurement you say 20 pounds American?  Under 100 pounds is not acceptable.

You say the new engine is tight?  Take it apart now.  You should be able to turn it over with one hand on the front of the crank all the way through the build up with the plugs out. For solid apex seals you must measure the housing width and check the apex seal length so as to get .001" for ceramic seals and .0015" for carbon seals. Ceramics only for turbo engines. Even two piece stock seals should be super glued end to end while held against a flat surface and then measured against the housing width. The super glue will fail in the first few revolutions.

All of the grooves in the rotors must be clean and shiny in the bottom. A bit of carbon left behind can bind up a side seal, and make some drag that makes a hard spot on the one place, and the seal will break during run in and loose compression.  It is possible for a side seal spring to slip out while installing the rotor. A piece breaks off and makes the engine stiff when turned. Glue everything together with cold wheel bearing grease during assembly.

With just assembly oil, a new engine should start in a few revolutions. After break-in, near instant starts even hot.

Racing Beat used extra premix oil in turbo engines. Sounds good to me.

I install side seals with zero end gap. They wear in quickly and some clearance develops in the first few hours. I use Texaco fleet 30 weight conventional oil for break-in. then 2 hours at 2000 RPM then a few easy laps with low loads. Then dump the fleet oil and fill with a straight weight racing synthetic. A must for lubricating a turbocharger. Ready for a race season shifting at 9,600 RPM.

Remember the oil scraper springs are HANDED. Fronts and rears cannot be mixed.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 8/31/2019 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.  Please!

It started about a year ago.  I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.  One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with my formation flying buddies.  After the brief we went to start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.  It would crank and almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying.  After recharging for a couple hours it started up normally.  I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of start procedure SNAFU.  I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-warmed, starting fine when cold.  Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop until the engine cooled.  While in a safe place I tested air starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.  After starting it would run really rough  whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so.  By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and occasionally backfire.  If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.  I got interested in Li Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.  It increased my total enerrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.  Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.  Not only did it not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.  So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning really fast.  Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made the condition worse.  And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the compression.  The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.  Compression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.  Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.  All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.  (fittings, etc..., EGR passages pluged)  I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness.

And?  Nothing.  Fuel flow and injector gross function verified.  All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.  Tried a different CAS just for kicks.  The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in. 

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO.  The new engine will never know how good it has it.



On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine….
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant expansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Managed to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warped. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods, to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of noise at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

 

I’ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html


- Matt Boiteau
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