X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=G+5i7Os5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=JFLq0Zg074/TNoPlXaVJig==:117 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DDNF8ybvv5wA:10 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10 a=J70Eh1EUuV4A:10 a=_EeEMxcBAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=x-75qrxFAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=fvmqBQ2nJ5X753lGvacA:9 a=evUVdR_49GgnpHMm:21 a=uT9zwOH8ehBrOqSj:21 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=4hVreLlt7OsA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=K_Pv9SaLS-kA:10 a=5UeK9suJl1gA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=Jyd1N6DuF_5de91S:21 a=med_sk6YCZbrnSvq:21 a=2EA2v4FDMhR3FNLt:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=syqr5EOPB93U0NEwqYpB:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=pSfGKr4syse1NfsQC3dY:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 From: "Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com" Received: from mail-ed1-f42.google.com ([209.85.208.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 12913818 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 11:22:36 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.42; envelope-from=breytenbachleroux@gmail.com Received: by mail-ed1-f42.google.com with SMTP id t50so13536076edd.2 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=7FYI0wf3t4RSUWsHlONShZbTQ/Xe4KER2gVR5GuaBJc=; b=MbYWkkWWkS+tkUlek8DbFi/FY3o3GxKMusOmlidgXle9Z2qVsS59SqFwpA3AzZxK95 bitMCpcNbR3jYWOrdLmnUHVSWRTEss32JZaNhljN6TdHyMPqJKGO/AuVKBxZxP5UVJqb AOOFTyCHMK9k8YKfjCHPTGJs4FVVDzipN8i+K1vxRd4A6I2kJY4WPnX5GFMV+yirXIVF 99zORQolCUWla+SpbT3F+XVW530xorWBXiw0/NyaXR3xo1UueEcqIMC3L7lb3Skjhx7b TFZsEg++HNls9RnA6rq8OfG11UlsIGSNi8jnWtWQbsrA0bNg74NnREZyoHRrlt+/YyTk kAEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date :message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=7FYI0wf3t4RSUWsHlONShZbTQ/Xe4KER2gVR5GuaBJc=; b=SdE/PQPVrb6e+l+B5XHphZqMB7/2K3krO/c9SM4a/T1sHyEvNx261XCk+rp+AL5Fh1 Dwzfj+FSgmSSr7wMc+ENmCSuuekTB7o1HdgFgFBV1ne6TcAjQw0QishHoSFsZGWv3EQW 2sYRUIv5wzu2S/xnJJGEHTwClIOfckVlolyEltljIdGWdLzZZ48NJPGJoCPv9zu1HnV+ KH1DNRO5mdPiQ+tf5h3WiRSWFpKlMXxduazUVf3+91YXTxdEwRw+xOYE3Unc6f0fxTAg zoyZGkx0rjpuRCJmSSEDvb84npR2xT762MkDcgqT5yE/bYALXI2x7oPBKwbGhuqwbTPg ny2A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWFkiGwG3ygHQffHPvOm33LG9wU21w0GxC1+t9NscJzIiMAH3Bk HLWMfki96BOyvWJkXidba+ulSPRy X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwHPrh8ZRXBhl9CktZE8BNARVyLlYoXUkdCjcDsFRlvPj1JMyinMDGz5ahE33/0J0EQaVsmrQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4f04:: with SMTP id t4mr6995914eju.190.1567351337725; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from SN1PR12MB2398.namprd12.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:802:6::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm2339310edn.14.2019.09.01.08.22.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:22:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild Thread-Index: ATcyMTIt9eCppZ5iE9J87FBu37fnzLxdR2uM X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 15:22:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN1PR12MB23984EF235AC70FCA607ED9DFDBF0SN1PR12MB2398namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_SN1PR12MB23984EF235AC70FCA607ED9DFDBF0SN1PR12MB2398namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi reading today through The Mazda Papers the Newsletter Volume 6 of Tracy = Crook Interesting on his first rotary engine that was a used 1986 13B with 60 000= miles on he used MMO ( marvel mystery oil ) from day one. This rotary motor did 856 flight h= ours before he replaced it with the turbo II 89 model and EC 2 (EFI control= ler) He mixed the MMO at 1 ounce per gallon of gasoline ( 128 - 1 ratio ) He also experienced, hot starting issues,more or less on these 850 hours. At some point he had ran out of MMO and put in standard outboard two stroke= oil. The compression for hot cracking was back and not wanting to compromise on = the "cleaning & detergent properties " of MMO he from that point used MMO += two stroke oil in 50-50 mixture Just thought to throw it in after reading it in the Mazda Papers Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of = David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 12:26 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild Coffee? Now why didn't I think of that??? I am pretty sure the engine is tight because of the new bearings I had pres= sed in. It was installing and tightening down the rear stationary gear (wi= th its new bearing) that made the engine too tight to turn by hand. My tho= ught is after a couple hours of break in the bearing will fit better and no= t be as tight. I followed your advise about zero gap on the side seals. So they fit quite= snugly in their groves, while being able to move as a unit. That could al= so be adding to the tightness and loss of early compression, but if your th= eory about them quickly being worn down to the right size has any validity,= then again I should be in much better shape after a few hours of break-in. Some extra 2-stroke oil isn't a bad Idea. I'm gonna start buying that stuf= f by the 55gal drum I think. It must be very dear to those who make it. Thanks for your post! David Leonard On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:25 AM lehanover lehanover@aol.com > = wrote: It is called "Marvel Mystery Oil" because the people that make it don't kno= w what it is either. Best for cleaning tools that might rust, or that tough grease removing prob= lem. Dying compression is the usual cause for a "no hot start".....Spinning the = engine faster allows less time for compression to leak away and you get a s= tart. In the car always park on a hill. In the race car with a junk yard en= gine, we towed it a few feet and got a start. If towing was not available 1= /2 cup of oil and 1/2 cup of hot coffee in each side of the Weber 48 IDA in= cold weather, and I got a start. People would stand in close to see it hap= pen. What? You don't pour coffee in your engine? The coffee is to add heat and take up volume. Added compression ratio. The = oil is to seal the engine for a few revolutions. If this problem came on over time, I would not suspect an electrical fault.= In the compression measurement you say 20 pounds American? Under 100 poun= ds is not acceptable. You say the new engine is tight? Take it apart now. You should be able to= turn it over with one hand on the front of the crank all the way through t= he build up with the plugs out. For solid apex seals you must measure the h= ousing width and check the apex seal length so as to get .001" for ceramic = seals and .0015" for carbon seals. Ceramics only for turbo engines. Even tw= o piece stock seals should be super glued end to end while held against a f= lat surface and then measured against the housing width. The super glue wil= l fail in the first few revolutions. All of the grooves in the rotors must be clean and shiny in the bottom. A b= it of carbon left behind can bind up a side seal, and make some drag that m= akes a hard spot on the one place, and the seal will break during run in an= d loose compression. It is possible for a side seal spring to slip out whi= le installing the rotor. A piece breaks off and makes the engine stiff when= turned. Glue everything together with cold wheel bearing grease during ass= embly. With just assembly oil, a new engine should start in a few revolutions. Aft= er break-in, near instant starts even hot. Racing Beat used extra premix oil in turbo engines. Sounds good to me. I install side seals with zero end gap. They wear in quickly and some clear= ance develops in the first few hours. I use Texaco fleet 30 weight conventi= onal oil for break-in. then 2 hours at 2000 RPM then a few easy laps with l= ow loads. Then dump the fleet oil and fill with a straight weight racing sy= nthetic. A must for lubricating a turbocharger. Ready for a race season shi= fting at 9,600 RPM. Remember the oil scraper springs are HANDED. Fronts and rears cannot be mix= ed. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 8/31/2019 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net writes: Interject when you figure out my underlying issue. Please! It started about a year ago. I was putting a lot of hours on N4VY (Turbo r= otary RV-6) commuting for work. One day I flew to Ramona to meet up with m= y formation flying buddies. After the brief we went to start our planes bu= t mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight. It would crank a= nd almost catch, but I wore out my battery trying. After recharging for a = couple hours it started up normally. I flew home and wrote it off as some = sort of start procedure SNAFU. I use Tracys EC2. But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when pre-wa= rmed, starting fine when cold. Sometimes leaving me stranded at a gas stop= until the engine cooled. While in a safe place I tested air starts and th= ere seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with th= e prop spinning. Then it started doing something else strange. After starting it would run = really rough whenever the alternator output got above 55amps or so. By ro= ugh I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throttle by sagging and o= ccasionally backfire. If I had been cranking for a long period it could ta= ke a minute for the amps to drop and the engine to run normally. I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (No im= proveement) So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the voltag= e was dropping with cranking or somethng. I got interested in Li Ion batte= ries and splurged on the Big one. It increased my total enerrgy storage, C= CAs, and decreased weight by over 10#. Expensive but worth it considering = they are also supposed to last longer. But it turns out the old battery was fine after. Not only did it not solve= the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much faster charge,= it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start, making th= e problem worse. Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement. The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixtures of = 2-stroke oil and or MMO. So I finally grounded it. My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggraded to = the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turning re= ally fast. Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the alternator made = the condition worse. And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just = enough to really kill the compression. The side iron plates in that engine= had the better part of 1000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7. Com= pression measured mid 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth. Time for a= rebuild. I went all out. All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs, o-rings a= nd the necessary aircraft mods to those parts. (fittings, etc..., EGR pass= ages pluged) I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coil harness. And? Nothing. Fuel flow and injector gross function verified. All sparks= verified during cranking with a timing light. Tried a different CAS just = for kicks. The engine is a little tight because it is new, compression is = not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little = bits are still glued on.. Jump in here anytime. You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and keep = cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in. This talk has been really helpful for me. Dave Leonard (the forever optimist) Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO. The new e= ngine will never know how good it has it. On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com > wrote: Well ran into a little bit of a snag on my RX8 engine=85. While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi = tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant ex= pansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I f= eel the engine got baked underneath the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need= to come up with some flaps that open after shutdown or something, to let t= he heat escape out. Maybe even an electric fan that runs for 5 minutes afte= r shutdown* I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods= , to see if I need to change anything or add/remove. 25hours, 99% ground testing The iron plates were lapped and renitraded Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals) Oil ~125psi at full throttle 20w50 VR1 high zinc RX7 rear pressure regulator 2 washers under front pressure regulator weber jet kit thermal pellet Coolant 1.3bar cap ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached) 70/30 Zerex G-05 I=92ll order the Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacke= t seals can handle a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/0= 4-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html - Matt Boiteau -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --_000_SN1PR12MB23984EF235AC70FCA607ED9DFDBF0SN1PR12MB2398namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi reading today through The Mazda Papers th= e Newsletter Volume 6 of Tracy Crook
Interesting on his first rotary engine that = was a used 1986 13B with 60 000 miles on he used
MMO ( marvel mystery oil ) from day one. Thi= s rotary motor did 856 flight hours before he replaced it with the turbo II= 89 model and EC 2 (EFI controller)
He mixed the MMO at 1 ounce per gallon of ga= soline ( 128 - 1 ratio )
He also experienced, hot starting issues,mor= e or less on these 850 hours.
At some point he had ran out of MMO and put = in standard outboard two stroke oil.
The compression for hot cracking was back an= d not wanting to compromise on the "cleaning & detergent propertie= s " of MMO he from that point used MMO + two stroke oil in 50-50 m= ixture

Just thought to throw it in after reading it= in the Mazda Papers

Get Outlook for iOS
 
From: Rot= ary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Dav= id Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 12:26 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The Story of an unecessary rebuild
 
Coffee?  Now why didn't I think of that??? 

I am pretty sure the engine is tight because of the new b= earings I had pressed in.  It was installing and tightening down the r= ear stationary gear (with its new bearing) that made the engine too tight t= o turn by hand.  My thought is after a couple hours of break in the bearing will fit better and not be as tight.<= /div>

I followed your advise about zero gap on the side seals.&= nbsp; So they fit quite snugly in their groves, while being able to move as= a unit.  That could also be adding to the tightness and loss of early= compression, but if your theory about them quickly being worn down to the right size has any validity, then again I s= hould be in much better shape after a few hours of break-in.

Some extra 2-stroke oil isn't a bad Idea.  I'm gonna= start buying that stuff by the 55gal drum I think.  It must be very d= ear to those who make it.

Thanks for your post!

David Leonard

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 7:25 AM lehanov= er lehanover@aol.com <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
It is called "Marvel Mystery Oil" because the peo= ple that make it don't know what it is either.

Best for cleaning tools that might rust, or that tough grea= se removing problem.

Dying compression is the usual cause for a "no hot sta= rt".....Spinning the engine faster allows less time for compression to= leak away and you get a start. In the car always park on a hill. In the race car with a junk yard engine, we towed it a few= feet and got a start. If towing was not available 1/2 cup of oil and 1/2 c= up of hot coffee in each side of the Weber 48 IDA in cold weather, and I go= t a start. People would stand in close to see it happen. What? You don't pour coffee in your engine?=

The coffee is to add heat and take up volume. Added compres= sion ratio. The oil is to seal the engine for a few revolutions.

If this problem came on over time, I would not suspect an e= lectrical fault. In the compression measurement you say 20 pounds American?=   Under 100 pounds is not acceptable.

You say the new engine is tight?  Take it apart now.&n= bsp; You should be able to turn it over with one hand on the front of the c= rank all the way through the build up with the plugs out. For solid apex seals you must measure the housing width and che= ck the apex seal length so as to get .001" for ceramic seals and .0015= " for carbon seals. Ceramics only for turbo engines. Even two piece st= ock seals should be super glued end to end while held against a flat surface and then measured against the housing wi= dth. The super glue will fail in the first few revolutions.

All of the grooves in the rotors must be clean and shiny in= the bottom. A bit of carbon left behind can bind up a side seal, and make = some drag that makes a hard spot on the one place, and the seal will break during run in and loose compression= .  It is possible for a side seal spring to slip out while installing = the rotor. A piece breaks off and makes the engine stiff when turned. Glue = everything together with cold wheel bearing grease during assembly.

With just assembly oil, a new engine should start in a few = revolutions. After break-in, near instant starts even hot.

Racing Beat used extra premix oil in turbo engines. Sounds = good to me.

I install side seals with zero end gap. They wear in quickl= y and some clearance develops in the first few hours. I use Texaco fleet 30= weight conventional oil for break-in. then 2 hours at 2000 RPM then a few easy laps with low loads. Then dump th= e fleet oil and fill with a straight weight racing synthetic. A must for lu= bricating a turbocharger. Ready for a race season shifting at 9,600 RPM.

Remember the oil scraper springs are HANDED. Fronts and rea= rs cannot be mixed.

Lynn E. Hanover

In a message dated 8/31/2019 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Interject when you figure out my underlying issue.  Please!

It started about a year ago.  I was putting a lot of hours on N4V= Y (Turbo rotary RV-6) commuting for work.  One day I flew to Ramona to= meet up with my formation flying buddies.  After the brief we went to= start our planes but mine wouldn't start and I had to bow out of the flight.  It would crank and almost catch, but I= wore out my battery trying.  After recharging for a couple hours it s= tarted up normally.  I flew home and wrote it off as some sort of star= t procedure SNAFU.  I use Tracys EC2.

But that was the start of a long succession of difficult starts when p= re-warmed, starting fine when cold.  Sometimes leaving me stranded at = a gas stop until the engine cooled.  While in a safe place I tested ai= r starts and there seemed to be no issue there just turning the fuel pumps back on with the prop spinning.

Then it started doing something else strange.  After starting it = would run really rough  whenever the alternator output got above 55amp= s or so.  By rough I mean sputtering and resisting advancing the throt= tle by sagging and occasionally backfire.  If I had been cranking for a long period it could take a minute for the amps to= drop and the engine to run normally.

I started by checking for loose wires and replacing the spark plugs. (= No improveement)

So then I replaced the battery, it still seemed strong but maybe the v= oltage was dropping with cranking or somethng.  I got interested in Li= Ion batteries and splurged on the Big one.  It increased my total ene= rrgy storage, CCAs, and decreased weight by over 10#.  Expensive but worth it considering they are also supposed = to last longer.

But it turns out the old battery was fine after.  Not only did it= not solve the problem, but because the Li Ion battery can take a much fast= er charge, it would max out the alternator at least briefly on EVERY start,= making the problem worse.

Next was fuel filter and spark plug wires, no improvement.

The condition continued to slowly worsen despite trying richer mixture= s of 2-stroke oil and or MMO.  So I finally grounded it.

My thought at this point was that the compression had finally deggrade= d to the point where compression was not enough for combustion unless turni= ng really fast.  Perhaps the extra drag from full output of the altern= ator made the condition worse.  And when it was hot the rotor housings expanded just enough to really kill the comp= ression.  The side iron plates in that engine had the better part of 1= 000 flight hours plus unknown time in an RX7.  Compression measured mi= d 20s on both rotors, for what thats worth.  Time for a rebuild.

I went all out.  All new rotor and side housings, seals, springs,= o-rings and the necessary aircraft mods to those parts.  (fittings, e= tc..., EGR passages pluged)  I also replaced the LS1 coils and the coi= l harness.

And?  Nothing.  Fuel flow and injector gross function verifi= ed.  All sparks verified during cranking with a timing light.  Tr= ied a different CAS just for kicks.  The engine is a little tight beca= use it is new, compression is not spectacular cause the seals have not set, perhaps the apex seal little bits are still glued on..

Jump in here anytime.


You know? You are right, I just need to disconnect the alternator and = keep cranking until it finally catches and gets a little bit of a break-in.=  

This talk has been really helpful for me.

Dave Leonard
(the forever optimist)
Also going to switch to full synthetic 2-stroke oil without MMO. = The new engine will never know how good it has it.



On= Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 10:18 PM Matt Boiteau mattboiteau@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:

Well ran into a l= ittle bit of a snag on my RX8 engine=85.
While trying different things to cool down the oil, during high-speed taxi = tests I managed to blow out the temporary clear level tube on my coolant ex= pansion tank, which lead to pressure loss, which caused it to overheat. Man= aged to shut down near the hanger and get a water hose on the rads, but I feel the engine got baked undernea= th the fiberglass cowl. *Future note, need to come up with some flaps that = open after shutdown or something, to let the heat escape out. Maybe even an= electric fan that runs for 5 minutes after shutdown*

I know I blew some type of coolant gasket, but unsure if the irons are warp= ed. Going to take apart next weekend. Just wanted to run by my list of mods= , to see if I need to change anything or add/remove.

25hours, 99% ground testing
The iron plates were lapped and renitraded
Rotor housings were new and welded in P-Ports
RotaryAviation master kit (RA super seals)

Oil
~125psi at full throttle
20w50 VR1 high zinc
RX7 rear pressure regulator
2 washers under front pressure regulator
weber jet kit
thermal pellet


Coolant
1.3bar cap
ECU says ~27psi at full throttle, not sure I believe that yet. Lots of nois= e at full throttle on my pressure sensors (pic attached)
70/30 Zerex G-05

 <= /u>

I=92ll order the = Atkins oring kit, supposedly their brown inner water jacket seals can handl= e a bit higher temps. https://www.atkinsrotary.com/store/04-11-Rx8-O-Ring-Kit-ARE317.html<= /u>


- Matt Boiteau
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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