Mailing List flyrotary@lancaironline.net Message #57751
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: OMP Plumbing
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:29:57 -0500
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Bill, 

It is just a SWAG on the cause of the damage to the apex seals.  They didn't break, but they had deep scratches across the wear face.  Tracy thinks it could have been foreign matter, but couldn't say for sure.  I can't recall any time the engine was run without an air filter.  So, I don't know how/when debris could have gotten into the engine.

You may be correct in that I could be trying to solve a non-problem with the oil-fuel mix.  But, logic tells me that the ribs in the Lancair fuel tanks don't help to mix up the oil, especially if you pour the oil in first, then add fuel.  All of the oil will end up inboard due to the dihedral of the wings.  I wish I had thought to run the fuel return line to the outer most fuel bay.  That would have helped to mix the oil/fuel.  Too late for that now.

Also, it seems that we're wasting most of the 2-stroke by having it mixed in with the fuel.  Not that it doesn't help, but by injecting the oil through the rotor housing, you're putting the oil right on the apex seal where it is most needed.  Mazda engineers knew what they were doing here.

(I'll respond to the TB question in a separate post.)  

Mark

On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Mark,
Fuel does a lot of sloshing in my Lancair Legacy tanks.  I can hear the
doors banging back and forth with almost any movement on the ground. (engine
not running of course!)
I would expect the fuel to get mixed pretty fast in flight.
Did your broken seals look like they had not been properly lubricated?

If the OMP puts an ounce of oil per gallon in the car, the owner would have
to add a quart every two tanks of gas.  That would be like burning a quart
every 500 miles or so.  Most people would get rid of the car with that kind
of oil burning.

My point is: it would seem that our 1oz/gal might be overkill??

Why are you using 3 throttle bodies instead of just one ahead of the plenum?

Bill B

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 12:39 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OMP Plumbing

Tracy,

OK, here's the rest of the story...

I have come to believe the Lancair wing fuel tank design may have been
partly responsible for the damage to my apex seals.  Lancair uses a
wet wing and there are ribs forming 4 separate fuel bays per wing.
The ribs have "mouse holes" to allow fuel to pass from section to
section.  Years ago, when I used to run mogas, I used a fuel trailer
and would add 2-stroke when filling.  It would be well mixed by the
time I pumped it into my a/c tanks.  I was forced to switch to 100LL
when the beaurocrats started blending ethanol in all auto fuels
(ethanol is non-compatible with the Jeffco adhesives).  I now have to
fuel at the airport(s), so the process is to pour the 2-stroke into
the wing as I pump the fuel.  This isn't easy to do and I seldom
finish pouring the oil at the same time the tank is reaching full.
Pouring oil while fueling surely helped, but in retrospect I suspect
it still didn't mix thoroughly due to the ribs in the tanks.  I can't
figure a way to get the fuel thoroughly mixed, so I decided to switch
over to the OMP system.

Maybe the answer is to do both.  I can run the OMP (with 3-lines) and
also add some additional 2-stroke (1/2 oz./gallon) to the wing tanks.
Not perfect, but much better than the alternative.

Mark


On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hope I didn't give the impression I was an expert on the Mazda oil
injection
> system.   I only remember where the 4 lines went on the 13B from
> disassembling so many of them.   Only 2 of the ports (secondaries I
believe)
> got the oil lines so only 4 needed.    Don't think I've ever seen a 20B
OMP
> setup  (my 20B engine was built from new parts).   I can't imagine why
there
> are 4 lines on a 20B setup.   I think there are only 2 lines used on 3rd
gen
> 13Bs.  Only the rotor housings are fed, not the manifold.   Since the 20B
is
> essentially a 3rd gen engine,  I would have thought it would have a
similar
> setup with 3 lines (one to each rotor housing).
>
> I'm still of the opinion that you can't do better (from a functional
> standpoint) than premixing the oil so I've never played with the
injection.
> It just isn't practical for most people in car use.   That's why 95%+ of
OMP
> adapters are purchased by car guys.
>
> Tracy
>
> PS:   I thought I sent that updated EC2 installation guide to you before I
> left home (I'm in Colorado until early May)   The main difference from
last
> one you have is that Both A & B are programmed when running on A
controller.
>   When using B, only B is affected by programming changes.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Tracy,
>>
>> How should I plumb the 4 lines for the 3-rotor.  From your
>> explanation, it seems it should have 6 lines (2 per rotor)?  Even the
>> 20b OMP only has 4-ports. Should I split the 4th line into three
>> separate lines?  Do you know of anyplace where I could read about how
>> OMPs are connected from the factory?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>>
>> P.S.  Were you going to email me a copy of the updated EC-2 manual?
>>
>>
>> On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Two into the rotor housings, two into the intake manifold just upstream
>>> of
>>> the ports in the block.
>>>
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve, that's why I'm asking the experts on this.  I'm still trying to
>>>> figure this out.  The older 13b OMP has 4 ports.  So did the 20B OMP,
>>>> with
>>>> only three lines.  I was planning on not using the 4th port.  Where
does
>>>> the 4th line go to on the 13b setup?
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
wrote:
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since the OMP 's I've seen are set up with 4 oil lines and intended for
>>>> a
>>>> two rotor engine, how do you intend to adapt it to the three rotor
>>>> engine
>>>> in terms of amount of oil metered and how it is distributed?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Mark Steitle
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 8:10 PM
>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] OMP Plumbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is anyone running an oil metering pump (OMP) that can help me figure
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> how the lines should be connected.  I'm planning on using the Mazda
>>>>>> banjo fittings to hook up to the OMP, but what do I do with the check
>>>>>> valves.  Do you connect the check valves to a vacuum source or just
>>>>>> block them off?  Will the system work properly if I plug the check
>>>>>> valves?  I plan on locking the lever in the full open position.  Will
>>>>>> this work for a/c use?  I'll be using Richard Sohn's adapter with a 1
>>>>>> gallon reservoir filled with 2-stroke oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --

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