X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-bk0-f52.google.com ([209.85.214.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.4) with ESMTPS id 5475275 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:30:34 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.52; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by bkcjm19 with SMTP id jm19so4065851bkc.25 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=GbtUVgat0mIh6msGBhJvzO5TFSk0X6+MmfekIM7CUjk=; b=EcfbCmOj/ffUxxHJpy9Z8ZhfhpMB17HakAle71BzW6H6bl+YY1BuZ497DnKtUnsqjy fGJVg+1ogxyl7bUeFQhII2oJScdPZ/Qhkk7+mdwzPcCSXy5JXOiX9n4jNE/wWRhm9Sac GLaKyX5LsxfXT0yM11zX4C7jpSjaAm5glgrTOiCHGp5pRSMCjTytEUOUt1A+J9esLn5q 0T+NebJ9m6T8DRcTYIv1QiBdYHwVZmhysWarDCOzRyVkh61aU5V9L9p7Ur5ET5hNAaA/ fhtFSXc2LJOF1EmEv4sClfETnqJMUkiXQWcrXJUNsZ7E2gdeCxr8s2WyfrwZ5tOWZrpY FwCw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.133.210 with SMTP id hz18mr4472809bkc.117.1334060998018; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.205.118.139 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Apr 2012 05:29:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 07:29:57 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: OMP Plumbing From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0ce0294ae5456b04bd5247a3 --000e0ce0294ae5456b04bd5247a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Bill, It is just a SWAG on the cause of the damage to the apex seals. They didn't break, but they had deep scratches across the wear face. Tracy thinks it could have been foreign matter, but couldn't say for sure. I can't recall any time the engine was run without an air filter. So, I don't know how/when debris could have gotten into the engine. You may be correct in that I could be trying to solve a non-problem with the oil-fuel mix. But, logic tells me that the ribs in the Lancair fuel tanks don't help to mix up the oil, especially if you pour the oil in first, then add fuel. All of the oil will end up inboard due to the dihedral of the wings. I wish I had thought to run the fuel return line to the outer most fuel bay. That would have helped to mix the oil/fuel. Too late for that now. Also, it seems that we're wasting most of the 2-stroke by having it mixed in with the fuel. Not that it doesn't help, but by injecting the oil through the rotor housing, you're putting the oil right on the apex seal where it is most needed. Mazda engineers knew what they were doing here. (I'll respond to the TB question in a separate post.) Mark On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > Mark, > Fuel does a lot of sloshing in my Lancair Legacy tanks. I can hear the > doors banging back and forth with almost any movement on the ground. > (engine > not running of course!) > I would expect the fuel to get mixed pretty fast in flight. > Did your broken seals look like they had not been properly lubricated? > > If the OMP puts an ounce of oil per gallon in the car, the owner would have > to add a quart every two tanks of gas. That would be like burning a quart > every 500 miles or so. Most people would get rid of the car with that kind > of oil burning. > > My point is: it would seem that our 1oz/gal might be overkill?? > > Why are you using 3 throttle bodies instead of just one ahead of the > plenum? > > Bill B > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Mark Steitle > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 12:39 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OMP Plumbing > > Tracy, > > OK, here's the rest of the story... > > I have come to believe the Lancair wing fuel tank design may have been > partly responsible for the damage to my apex seals. Lancair uses a > wet wing and there are ribs forming 4 separate fuel bays per wing. > The ribs have "mouse holes" to allow fuel to pass from section to > section. Years ago, when I used to run mogas, I used a fuel trailer > and would add 2-stroke when filling. It would be well mixed by the > time I pumped it into my a/c tanks. I was forced to switch to 100LL > when the beaurocrats started blending ethanol in all auto fuels > (ethanol is non-compatible with the Jeffco adhesives). I now have to > fuel at the airport(s), so the process is to pour the 2-stroke into > the wing as I pump the fuel. This isn't easy to do and I seldom > finish pouring the oil at the same time the tank is reaching full. > Pouring oil while fueling surely helped, but in retrospect I suspect > it still didn't mix thoroughly due to the ribs in the tanks. I can't > figure a way to get the fuel thoroughly mixed, so I decided to switch > over to the OMP system. > > Maybe the answer is to do both. I can run the OMP (with 3-lines) and > also add some additional 2-stroke (1/2 oz./gallon) to the wing tanks. > Not perfect, but much better than the alternative. > > Mark > > > On 4/9/12, Tracy wrote: > > Hope I didn't give the impression I was an expert on the Mazda oil > injection > > system. I only remember where the 4 lines went on the 13B from > > disassembling so many of them. Only 2 of the ports (secondaries I > believe) > > got the oil lines so only 4 needed. Don't think I've ever seen a 20B > OMP > > setup (my 20B engine was built from new parts). I can't imagine why > there > > are 4 lines on a 20B setup. I think there are only 2 lines used on 3rd > gen > > 13Bs. Only the rotor housings are fed, not the manifold. Since the 20B > is > > essentially a 3rd gen engine, I would have thought it would have a > similar > > setup with 3 lines (one to each rotor housing). > > > > I'm still of the opinion that you can't do better (from a functional > > standpoint) than premixing the oil so I've never played with the > injection. > > It just isn't practical for most people in car use. That's why 95%+ of > OMP > > adapters are purchased by car guys. > > > > Tracy > > > > PS: I thought I sent that updated EC2 installation guide to you before > I > > left home (I'm in Colorado until early May) The main difference from > last > > one you have is that Both A & B are programmed when running on A > controller. > > When using B, only B is affected by programming changes. > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > >> Tracy, > >> > >> How should I plumb the 4 lines for the 3-rotor. From your > >> explanation, it seems it should have 6 lines (2 per rotor)? Even the > >> 20b OMP only has 4-ports. Should I split the 4th line into three > >> separate lines? Do you know of anyplace where I could read about how > >> OMPs are connected from the factory? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Mark > >> > >> P.S. Were you going to email me a copy of the updated EC-2 manual? > >> > >> > >> On 4/9/12, Tracy wrote: > >>> Two into the rotor housings, two into the intake manifold just upstream > >>> of > >>> the ports in the block. > >>> > >>> Tracy > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPad > >>> > >>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > >>> > >>>> Steve, that's why I'm asking the experts on this. I'm still trying to > >>>> figure this out. The older 13b OMP has 4 ports. So did the 20B OMP, > >>>> with > >>>> only three lines. I was planning on not using the 4th port. Where > does > >>>> the 4th line go to on the 13b setup? > >>>> > >>>> Mark > >>>> > >>>> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Steven W. Boese > wrote: > >>>> Mark, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Since the OMP 's I've seen are set up with 4 oil lines and intended > for > >>>> a > >>>> two rotor engine, how do you intend to adapt it to the three rotor > >>>> engine > >>>> in terms of amount of oil metered and how it is distributed? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Steve > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Mark Steitle > >>>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 8:10 PM > >>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] OMP Plumbing > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Is anyone running an oil metering pump (OMP) that can help me figure > >>>>>> out > >>>>>> how the lines should be connected. I'm planning on using the Mazda > >>>>>> banjo fittings to hook up to the OMP, but what do I do with the > check > >>>>>> valves. Do you connect the check valves to a vacuum source or just > >>>>>> block them off? Will the system work properly if I plug the check > >>>>>> valves? I plan on locking the lever in the full open position. > Will > >>>>>> this work for a/c use? I'll be using Richard Sohn's adapter with a > 1 > >>>>>> gallon reservoir filled with 2-stroke oil. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mark S. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive and UnSub: > >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --000e0ce0294ae5456b04bd5247a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill,=A0

It is just a SWAG on the cause of the damage to= the apex seals. =A0They didn't break, but they had deep scratches acro= ss the wear face. =A0Tracy thinks it could have been foreign matter, but co= uldn't say for sure. =A0I can't recall any time the engine was run = without an air filter. =A0So, I don't know how/when debris could have g= otten into the engine.

You may be correct in that I could be trying to solve a= non-problem with the oil-fuel mix. =A0But, logic tells me that the ribs in= the Lancair fuel tanks don't help to mix up the oil, especially if you= pour the oil in first, then add fuel. =A0All of the oil will end up inboar= d due to the dihedral of the wings. =A0I wish I had thought to run the fuel= return line to the outer most fuel bay. =A0That would have helped to mix t= he oil/fuel. =A0Too late for that now.

Also, it seems that we're wasting most of the 2-str= oke by having it mixed in with the fuel. =A0Not that it doesn't help, b= ut by injecting the oil through the rotor housing, you're putting the o= il right on the apex seal where it is most needed. =A0Mazda engineers knew = what they were doing here.

(I'll respond to the TB question in a separate post.) =A0

Mark

On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 = at 10:19 PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Mark,
Fuel does a lot of sloshing in my Lancair Legacy tanks. =A0I can hear the doors banging back and forth with almost any movement on the ground. (engin= e
not running of course!)
I would expect the fuel to get mixed pretty fast in flight.
Did your broken seals look like they had not been properly lubricated?

If the OMP puts an ounce of oil per gallon in the car, the owner would have=
to add a quart every two tanks of gas. =A0That would be like burning a quar= t
every 500 miles or so. =A0Most people would get rid of the car with that ki= nd
of oil burning.

My point is: it would seem that our 1oz/gal might be overkill??

Why are you using 3 throttle bodies instead of just one ahead of the plenum= ?

Bill B

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 12:39 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: OMP Plumbing

Tracy,

OK, here's the rest of the story...

I have come to believe the Lancair wing fuel tank design may have been
partly responsible for the damage to my apex seals. =A0Lancair uses a
wet wing and there are ribs forming 4 separate fuel bays per wing.
The ribs have "mouse holes" to allow fuel to pass from section to=
section. =A0Years ago, when I used to run mogas, I used a fuel trailer
and would add 2-stroke when filling. =A0It would be well mixed by the
time I pumped it into my a/c tanks. =A0I was forced to switch to 100LL
when the beaurocrats started blending ethanol in all auto fuels
(ethanol is non-compatible with the Jeffco adhesives). =A0I now have to
fuel at the airport(s), so the process is to pour the 2-stroke into
the wing as I pump the fuel. =A0This isn't easy to do and I seldom
finish pouring the oil at the same time the tank is reaching full.
Pouring oil while fueling surely helped, but in retrospect I suspect
it still didn't mix thoroughly due to the ribs in the tanks. =A0I can&#= 39;t
figure a way to get the fuel thoroughly mixed, so I decided to switch
over to the OMP system.

Maybe the answer is to do both. =A0I can run the OMP (with 3-lines) and
also add some additional 2-stroke (1/2 oz./gallon) to the wing tanks.
Not perfect, but much better than the alternative.

Mark


On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.c= om> wrote:
> Hope I didn't give the impression I was an expert on the Mazda oil=
injection
> system. =A0 I only remember where the 4 lines went on the 13B from
> disassembling so many of them. =A0 Only 2 of the ports (secondaries I<= br> believe)
> got the oil lines so only 4 needed. =A0 =A0Don't think I've ev= er seen a 20B
OMP
> setup =A0(my 20B engine was built from new parts). =A0 I can't ima= gine why
there
> are 4 lines on a 20B setup. =A0 I think there are only 2 lines used on= 3rd
gen
> 13Bs. =A0Only the rotor housings are fed, not the manifold. =A0 Since = the 20B
is
> essentially a 3rd gen engine, =A0I would have thought it would have a<= br> similar
> setup with 3 lines (one to each rotor housing).
>
> I'm still of the opinion that you can't do better (from a func= tional
> standpoint) than premixing the oil so I've never played with the injection.
> It just isn't practical for most people in car use. =A0 That's= why 95%+ of
OMP
> adapters are purchased by car guys.
>
> Tracy
>
> PS: =A0 I thought I sent that updated EC2 installation guide to you be= fore I
> left home (I'm in Colorado until early May) =A0 The main differenc= e from
last
> one you have is that Both A & B are programmed when running on A controller.
> =A0 When using B, only B is affected by programming changes.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Apr 9, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Tracy,
>>
>> How should I plumb the 4 lines for the 3-rotor. =A0From your
>> explanation, it seems it should have 6 lines (2 per rotor)? =A0Eve= n the
>> 20b OMP only has 4-ports. Should I split the 4th line into three >> separate lines? =A0Do you know of anyplace where I could read abou= t how
>> OMPs are connected from the factory?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark
>>
>> P.S. =A0Were you going to email me a copy of the updated EC-2 manu= al?
>>
>>
>> On 4/9/12, Tracy <rwstrac= y@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Two into the rotor housings, two into the intake manifold just= upstream
>>> of
>>> the ports in the block.
>>>
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2012, at 5:42 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steve, that's why I'm asking the experts on this. = =A0I'm still trying to
>>>> figure this out. =A0The older 13b OMP has 4 ports. =A0So d= id the 20B OMP,
>>>> with
>>>> only three lines. =A0I was planning on not using the 4th p= ort. =A0Where
does
>>>> the 4th line go to on the 13b setup?
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:29 PM, S= teven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu&g= t;
wrote:
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since the OMP 's I've seen are set up with 4 oil l= ines and intended for
>>>> a
>>>> two rotor engine, how do you intend to adapt it to the thr= ee rotor
>>>> engine
>>>> in terms of amount of oil metered and how it is distribute= d?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Mark Steitle
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 8:10 PM
>>>>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>>>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] OMP Plumbing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is anyone running an oil metering pump (OMP) that = can help me figure
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> how the lines should be connected. =A0I'm plan= ning on using the Mazda
>>>>>> banjo fittings to hook up to the OMP, but what do = I do with the check
>>>>>> valves. =A0Do you connect the check valves to a va= cuum source or just
>>>>>> block them off? =A0Will the system work properly i= f I plug the check
>>>>>> valves? =A0I plan on locking the lever in the full= open position. =A0Will
>>>>>> this work for a/c use? =A0I'll be using Richar= d Sohn's adapter with a 1
>>>>>> gallon reservoir filled with 2-stroke oil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark S.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Homepage: =A0http://www.flyrotary.com/<= /a>
>> Archive and UnSub:
>> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html
>
> --
> Homepage: =A0h= ttp://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:
> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml
>

--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


--
Homepage: =A0http:/= /www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub: =A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists= /flyrotary/List.html

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