George,

Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles into the aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is why the process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping. I have inquired recently and the price has NOT come down.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

 

Mark,

We are singing from the same sheet of music. I need the weight reduction more than you, or should I say no one needs it more than me. I am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. Actually Powersports light weight engine used components out of both the 12A and 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using  my own single crank, 13B rotor housing Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and looking to Bill Jepson's end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor and light weight water pump but it will all take time to just get the basics like P-port inserts and end housings manufacture up and running. It never happens soon enough does it.

Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun application it was very high, but can't remember. There is no something that's almost as good. Mistral tried everything and they all failed. It doesn't matter how good the surface or how hard the surface is, it's the substrate that fails, taking the surface with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate.  Det-gun application pushes steel into the surface a good depth eliminating the substrate failure.

I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear issue in the 16X, however there's so many 13B's out there will still be a strong demand for parts for likes of Aviation and racing.

George ( down under)

George, 

I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings hasn't come down with time.  How expensive is "expensive"?   Maybe we could settle for something almost as good but half the cost?

I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the problem great success.  Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their aluminum 16X engine in the near future.  That would pretty much solve the weight problem for us.  

Mark  

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:

Mark,

The secret to Richards design is an expensive cast iron mould - so if anything does happen to him, that's the end of it anyway.

 

Although , like Tracy, I admire his efforts as not many people could accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the Powersport type carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is redesigning for the homebuilt use.

 

The problem with end housings is the need for strong flat wear surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally aluminium is light weight but the only reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wear surface  ( which is very good) and because it is a flat area it has to be thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled with a aluminium  half housing. The carbon steel housings that Powersport developed is all steel, machined to exacting tolerances and brazed together in an over while being clamped in a jig ( I assume).  

 

Although aluminium is lighter than steel, the steel housings are only 1 lb heavier, I assume because the walls can be thinner. This would still be lighter than Richards composite housing.

 

There are other technologies coming to the fore like sintered laser technology where powered metal is laid down in thin layers at a time and then melted by the laser. This can be done to exacting specification and comes out much like high quality casts - with high density. Only the material needed is fused, the other falls from the item as it's removed from it's container. The thing I like about this technology is that's there very little machining ( which is expensive) and little waste.  Different materials can be used so as hard points can be built in as the item is constructed. I would like to see a Titanium rotor built with hard points ( built in steel  strips) for seal areas. I think you will see much more of this in the future, however I assume it is quite expense at this stage. Commercial reality drives these technologies, so we might see these things sooner rather than later - I hope.

George ( down under)

Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum per attached drawings."

The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's excellent work lost if anything were to happen to him.  It would turn into another story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a garage somewhere for decades, never to run again.  The "hairy-chested hero" group needs to do more to further the rotary movement for those that will follow.  Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old wheel over and over again.

Mark

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:

how about a "how to" manual?

After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can just imagine that manual.

Step 1.    Machine the aluminum side housings from billet aluminum.
Step 2     Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring grooves to seal the water jacket area. 
.
.
.
Step 302  ...........

Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals.  If you had the talent & ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need the manual at all.  It sure is way beyond what I could tackle.

Tracy

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Well then, how about a "how to" manual?  

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:

As soon as someone shows up with a couple million bucks.

 

Richard Sohn
N2071U

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

Richard,

 

That works for me, RES12 it is.  So, when do you start selling these little jewels?   

 

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there is a 13B based version in the future it will be a RES13.

 

Richard Sohn
N2071U

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

Richard,

Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A?  

Mark

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> wrote:

Yes Mark,

 

the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with a SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engine is on the test stand for shake down runs.

I would call that engine a 12B because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor housing.

 

Richard Sohn
N2071U