X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4387210 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:09:42 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Return-Path: Authentication-Results: cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com smtp.user=eanderson@carolina.rr.com; auth=pass (LOGIN) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=tPyhTduXPFtgbVmWJe+aAHaHf8D5fQpOUY0Eb4YTRv0= c=1 sm=0 a=2HMeElSWxmkA:10 a=q8OS1GolVHwA:10 a=DKdtJVj+ihzSk4qne/DqzA==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Hl1Gy0H5AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=LoHkbMfiAAAA:8 a=DAQumrtjV0koFMDnwg0A:9 a=sfeDTgiuI-DUpTCdFnUA:7 a=7I2Vzwq0rZVSd_bYwmJ2d6MriFkA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=iVkDmfvjeKcA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=wvcWU0hdy_YA:10 a=z9Xp4NGFEYCiXbePnSEA:9 a=Wa09LmlSNzSrRr771X0A:7 a=EIEUyhV92aEGnGch95ntqHlwp0wA:4 a=DKdtJVj+ihzSk4qne/DqzA==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 97.64.132.19 Received: from [97.64.132.19] ([97.64.132.19:49893] helo=EdAndersonPC) by cdptpa-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTPA id 6C/2B-01507-30E973C4; Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:09:08 +0000 Message-ID: <6A1018962BFA46B7AAF2351B9E8EE996@EdAndersonPC> Reply-To: "Ed Anderson" From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:09:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01CB1F91.CE87DB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8117.416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8117.416 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01CB1F91.CE87DB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Building a device to shoot carbide bits might not be too hard - the = difficult part would be the precision needed to control the depth and = distribution across the plate. Just my 0.02 Ed From: Mark Steitle=20 Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 5:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report This may be a dumb question, but how hard would it be to build a det-gun = machine? Anyone ever messed with one to know how they are built and how = they work? =20 Mark On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:31 AM, wrote: George, Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles into = the aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is = why the process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping. = I have inquired recently and the price has NOT come down. Bill -----Original Message----- From: George Lendich To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, Jul 8, 2010 9:41 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Mark, We are singing from the same sheet of music. I need the weight = reduction more than you, or should I say no one needs it more than me. I = am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. Actually = Powersports light weight engine used components out of both the 12A and = 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using my own single crank, 13B rotor = housing Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and looking to = Bill Jepson's end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor and = light weight water pump but it will all take time to just get the basics = like P-port inserts and end housings manufacture up and running. It = never happens soon enough does it. Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun application it was very high, = but can't remember. There is no something that's almost as good. Mistral = tried everything and they all failed. It doesn't matter how good the = surface or how hard the surface is, it's the substrate that fails, = taking the surface with it. Aluminium is a soft substrate. Det-gun = application pushes steel into the surface a good depth eliminating the = substrate failure. I'm wondering how Mazda handles the wear issue in the 16X, however = there's so many 13B's out there will still be a strong demand for parts = for likes of Aviation and racing. George ( down under) George, =20 I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun coatings = hasn't come down with time. How expensive is "expensive"? Maybe we = could settle for something almost as good but half the cost? I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the = problem great success. Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with their = aluminum 16X engine in the near future. That would pretty much solve = the weight problem for us. =20 Mark =20 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George Lendich = wrote: Mark, The secret to Richards design is an expensive cast iron mould - so = if anything does happen to him, that's the end of it anyway.=20 Although , like Tracy, I admire his efforts as not many people = could accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the = Powersport type carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is = redesigning for the homebuilt use. The problem with end housings is the need for strong flat wear = surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally aluminium is light weight = but the only reasonable wear surface to date has been Det-gun = application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go the cast iron wear = surface ( which is very good) and because it is a flat area it has to = be thick so as not to flex under load, this he coupled with a aluminium = half housing. The carbon steel housings that Powersport developed is all = steel, machined to exacting tolerances and brazed together in an over = while being clamped in a jig ( I assume). =20 Although aluminium is lighter than steel, the steel housings are = only 1 lb heavier, I assume because the walls can be thinner. This would = still be lighter than Richards composite housing. There are other technologies coming to the fore like sintered = laser technology where powered metal is laid down in thin layers at a = time and then melted by the laser. This can be done to exacting = specification and comes out much like high quality casts - with high = density. Only the material needed is fused, the other falls from the = item as it's removed from it's container. The thing I like about this = technology is that's there very little machining ( which is expensive) = and little waste. Different materials can be used so as hard points can = be built in as the item is constructed. I would like to see a Titanium = rotor built with hard points ( built in steel strips) for seal areas. I = think you will see much more of this in the future, however I assume it = is quite expense at this stage. Commercial reality drives these = technologies, so we might see these things sooner rather than later - I = hope. George ( down under) Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings from = billet aluminum per attached drawings." The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's = excellent work lost if anything were to happen to him. It would turn = into another story of some mystical rotary engine stored away in a = garage somewhere for decades, never to run again. The "hairy-chested = hero" group needs to do more to further the rotary movement for those = that will follow. Otherwise, we will keep reinventing the same old = wheel over and over again. Mark On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy Crook = wrote: how about a "how to" manual?=20 After following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I = can just imagine that manual. Step 1. Machine the aluminum side housings from billet = aluminum. Step 2 Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the o-ring = grooves to seal the water jacket area. =20 . . . Step 302 ........... Some projects aren't suited to DIY manuals. If you had the = talent & ability to follow the instructions, you probably wouldn't need = the manual at all. It sure is way beyond what I could tackle. Tracy=20 On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark Steitle = wrote: Well then, how about a "how to" manual? =20 Mark On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Richard Sohn = wrote: As soon as someone shows up with a couple million bucks. Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Richard, That works for me, RES12 it is. So, when do you start = selling these little jewels? =20 Mark On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Richard Sohn = wrote: Whatever, I call it the RES12. If there is a 13B based = version in the future it will be a RES13. Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report Richard,=20 Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? =20 Mark On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Richard Sohn = wrote: Yes Mark, the airframe is my AVID Heavy Hauler, which I flew = for 10 years with a SOOB. Airframe mods are done, and the engine is on = the test stand for shake down runs.=20 I would call that engine a 12B because it uses a = 12A rotor and rotor housing. Richard Sohn N2071U ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01CB1F91.CE87DB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Building a device to = shoot=20 carbide bits might not be too hard - the difficult part would be = the=20 precision needed to control the depth and distribution across the = plate. =20 Just my 0.02
 
Ed

Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 5:49 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

This may be a dumb question, but how hard would it be to = build a=20 det-gun machine?  Anyone ever messed with one to know how they are = built=20 and how they work?  =20

Mark

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 11:31 AM, <wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:
George,
Mostly correct, But det-gun application applies ceramic particles = into=20 the aluminum, not steel. The particles are partially imbedded which is = why the=20 process works so well. The application REQUIRES diamond lapping. I = have=20 inquired recently and the price has NOT come down.
Bill



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jul = 8, 2010=20 9:41 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flight Report

 
Mark,
We are singing from the same sheet = of music. I=20 need the weight reduction more than you, or should I say no one = needs it=20 more than me. I am working on a single 13B similar to Richard's 12A. = Actually Powersports light weight engine used components out of both = the 12A=20 and 13B, the 12A e-shaft mostly, I'm using  my own single = crank, 13B=20 rotor housing Renesis rotor (their cheaper- half price in fact) and = looking=20 to Bill Jepson's end housings. I told Bill I wanted a Titanium rotor = and=20 light weight water pump but it will all take time to just get the = basics=20 like P-port inserts and end housings manufacture up and running. It = never=20 happens soon enough does it.
Bill did mention the cost of Det-gun = application it was very high, but can't remember. There is no = something=20 that's almost as good. Mistral tried everything and they all failed. = It=20 doesn't matter how good the surface or how hard the surface is, it's = the=20 substrate that fails, taking the surface with it. Aluminium is a = soft=20 substrate.  Det-gun application pushes steel into the surface a = good=20 depth eliminating the substrate failure.
I'm wondering how Mazda handles the = wear issue=20 in the 16X, however there's so many 13B's out there will still be a = strong=20 demand for parts for likes of Aviation and racing.
George ( down under)

George, =20

I can't help but wonder why the cost for detonation gun = coatings hasn't=20 come down with time.  How expensive is "expensive"?   = Maybe we=20 could settle for something almost as good but half the cost?

I wish Richard, Bill and all the others who are working on the = problem=20 great success.  Maybe Mazda will decide to move ahead with = their=20 aluminum 16X engine in the near future.  That would pretty much = solve=20 the weight problem for us.  

Mark  



On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:58 PM, George = Lendich <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote:
Mark,
The secret to Richards design is = an expensive=20 cast iron mould - so if anything does happen to him, that's the = end of it=20 anyway.
 
Although , like Tracy, I admire = his=20 efforts as not many = people could=20 accomplish what he has done, I wish I had thought of the = Powersport type=20 carbon steel, oven brazed housings, that Bill Jepson is = redesigning for=20 the homebuilt use.
 
The problem with end housings is = the need for=20 strong flat wear surfaces couple with light weight. Naturally = aluminium is light weight but the only reasonable wear surface to = date has=20 been Det-gun application and that's expensive. Richard opted to go = the=20 cast iron wear surface  ( which is very good) and because it = is a=20 flat area it has to be thick so as not to flex under load, this he = coupled=20 with a aluminium  half housing. The carbon steel housings = that=20 Powersport developed is all steel, machined to exacting tolerances = and brazed together in an over while being clamped in a jig ( = I=20 assume).  
 
Although aluminium is lighter = than steel, the=20 steel housings are only 1 lb heavier, I assume because the = walls can=20 be thinner. This would still be lighter than Richards composite=20 housing.
 
There are other technologies = coming to the=20 fore like sintered laser technology where powered metal is laid = down in=20 thin layers at a time and then melted by the laser. This can be = done to=20 exacting specification and comes out much like high quality casts = - with=20 high density. Only the material needed is fused, the other falls = from the=20 item as it's removed from it's container. The thing I like about = this=20 technology is that's there very little machining ( which is = expensive) and=20 little waste.  Different materials can be used so as = hard points=20 can be built in as the item is constructed. I would like to see a = Titanium=20 rotor built with hard points ( built in steel  strips) for = seal=20 areas. I think you will see much more of this in the future, = however I=20 assume it is quite expense at this stage. Commercial reality = drives=20 these technologies, so we might see these things sooner rather = than later=20 - I hope.
George ( down under)
Step 1 should read, "Machine the aluminum side housings = from=20 billet aluminum per attached drawings."

The real issue is that I would hate to see all of Richard's = excellent work lost if anything were to happen to him.  It = would=20 turn into another story of some mystical rotary engine stored = away in a=20 garage somewhere for decades, never to run again.  The=20 "hairy-chested hero" group needs to do more to further the = rotary=20 movement for those that will follow.  Otherwise, we will = keep=20 reinventing the same old wheel over and over again.

Mark


On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Tracy = Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> = wrote:
how about a "how to" manual? =

After=20 following Richard's impressive effort over the years, I can = just=20 imagine that manual.

Step 1.    Machine = the=20 aluminum side housings from billet aluminum.
Step 2=20     Cast the iron wear surfaces and machine the = o-ring=20 grooves to seal the water jacket area.  =
.
.
.
Step=20 302  ...........

Some projects aren't suited to = DIY=20 manuals.  If you had the talent & ability to follow = the=20 instructions, you probably wouldn't need the manual at = all.  It=20 sure is way beyond what I could tackle.

Tracy

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Mark = Steitle=20 <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Well then, how about a "how to" manual? =  =20

Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM, = Richard Sohn=20 <res12@fairpoint.net> = wrote:
As soon as someone shows = up with a=20 couple million bucks.
 
Richard = Sohn
N2071U
----- Original Message = -----=20
From:=20 Mark Steitle
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Wednesday, = July 07,=20 2010 9:22 AM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Flight Report

Richard,
 
That works for me, RES12 it is.  So, when do = you start=20 selling these little jewels?   
 
Mark

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM, = Richard=20 Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> = wrote:
Whatever, I call it = the RES12. If=20 there is a 13B based version in the future it will be = a=20 RES13.
 
Richard=20 Sohn
N2071U
----- Original = Message -----=20
From:=20 Mark Steitle
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: = Tuesday, July 06,=20 2010 1:19 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Flight Report

Richard,=20

Then, wouldn't you refer to half a 12A as a 6A? =  

Mark

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at = 12:27 PM,=20 Richard Sohn <res12@fairpoint.net> = wrote:
Yes = Mark,
 
the airframe is = my AVID Heavy=20 Hauler, which I flew for 10 years with a SOOB. = Airframe=20 mods are done, and the engine is on the test stand = for=20 shake down runs.
I would call that = engine a=20 12B because it uses a 12A rotor and rotor=20 housing.
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
 





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