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Bill,
I'm sure you are right, less expensive is more
marketable. Same point I tried to make earlier. It was a joke.
Having said that, not sure I wouldn’t be willing
to pay a sizable amount (easy to say since its all hypothetical). The thing is
I've been thinking about a Harmon Rocket for a few years now. What would it be
worth to get HR performance without having to build an entirely new
airplane?
Since we are talking hypothetically, what would
that $25,000 engine look like? How much of it would be Mazda and how much
of it would be custom? If we were willing to split the difference and
essentially retain all the Mazda pieces except the iron housings are we
still talking about $25K? Just thinking out loud here.
Mike
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning
(Long)
Mike, Would you be interested for $25,000? You see that would
be the cost at least in todays dollars. Some people would be interested I'm
sure, but not enough to base a business on. I think the less expensive version
is the probable money maker. Bill Jepson
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:02:28 -0700
To: Rotary motors in
aircraft<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning
(Long)
Thanks for the recap Bill. I agree, Ratech went
way off the course with their glass panel stuff - should have stuck to the
original plan. They were listed in the latest Kitplanes engine round up so I
assume that means they at least responded to Kitplanes data call whether or not
they are still actively selling anything.
I guess my point (and I'm sure you are well
aware) was that many if not most of us have gone this route at least partially
because of cost. I'm surprised that Eggenfellner has managed to remain in
business selling FWF packages that rival the cost of a new Lyc. A friend bought
one and spent many hours (and months) working out the bugs to actually make it
work.
Happy to see your last sentence. Tracy indeed has
what I believe to be the right business model. Without him I doubt there would
be many rotaries flying and I doubt there would be much activity on this list. I
hope that your efforts serve to fill some of the gaps that Tracy doesn’t address
(engines, intakes, exhausts) using the same keep it basic but functional
model that Tracy uses.
To start with, I would like to place an order for
the 164 pound, over 200HP engine please. 
Mike
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning
(Long)
In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
George,
Hoping that they produce something that not only
works, but is within financial reach. The history to date of FWF packages
(including the last iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of pricing
that is simply out of reach. I like the concept of the rotary or wouldn’t be
flying one, but given the choice between being a beta tester for somebody's
brand new FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc from Vans for the
same or less money, I'd choose the Lyc.
Mike Wills
Mike and group, A little history.
There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distinct
"Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their
excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacular
equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far removed
from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed a spur gear
planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulous damper that worked
so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM without the shakes. BTW This
should put to rest the total BS that p-port engines won't idle! This was a
system that made over 200 HP and weighed 164 pounds FWF. After building this
machine they took stock and realized that they would have to sell the package
for around $25,000. (In the 90s) They were honest and figured they would have a
hard sell at that cost. They developed a package that they called the "Iron
Eagle" which was basicly a standard Mazda modified to live in aircraft
use. They used an aircraft leanable mechanical fuel injection and
the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. This package used the internal
ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and cheaper than the custom planetary.
This package was ready to sell and they had set an intended price of $14,000. I
think they would have had trouble making them fast enough at that price. This
information is all in back issues of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett was
killed in an aerobatics crash at that time. Steve and Everett had been partners
in business for over 20 years, including a long time before Powersport and Steve
was so hurt by the loss of his friend that he could not continue.
Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsin.
This is the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would change
the package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which took a long
time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost of the package.
There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a masters thesis by Steve
Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their web site. Every change
costs money and the final price they put on the system really takes it out of
the low price zone. It was their right to make the changes they wanted to after
they bought the company but, and understand that this is my personal opinion, I
think that they shot themselves in the foot. If they had sold the original
package while developing the updates concurrently I believe they really would
have had something. People really don't understand how much work goes into
developing a market-ready product. Ratek has suffered the ills of the current
economy as much as anyone. I don't know if they are currently willing to produce
or sell the package. I am truly saddened by this because I have seen the
original stuff and it was a flyable package. I am a mechanical engineer myself
and I've never seen a more obvious example of deviating from the K. I. S. S.
principle. We need a flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the price of
a standard aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only one
so far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the rotary
engines flying. We need to get back to the basics.
Bill Jepson
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