X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.4) with ESMTP id 4181259 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:58:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100328035737.QZTD5695.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:57:37 -0400 Received: from willsPC ([68.105.86.80]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id yTxd1d00A1k005Q04TxeFn; Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:57:38 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=yjuDh3Ma92GrVaJxYD7gfORM7ilP1Knqouyx6SOEBcg= c=1 sm=1 a=hGOUHFdajaQA:10 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=4eJHNNpXh7bbCgJp_SwA:9 a=5yX_kXKWrz-WalvkMaIA:7 a=lJ2Hv5Gs2ZIobErBSaOhs2X2QrcA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=pKNiJ0kYClLMpGqA:21 a=7T3CY4b6MCCSeJdH:21 a=nx28OZ1wlzpBRB6mSlEA:9 a=rNNQKQVvnZZ5QgADODkA:7 a=Ex6xnY-bZAZv5PAnu5N738R9fsYA:4 a=QHtkgAQWe416q3_XZDgA:9 a=2f15HMneWyZRz5h78DsBomLtKZYA:4 a=1Vq_FK4TplAA:10 a=dx5mqB3QTH2C56R_2R0A:9 a=XruvlouZCDbGUgEaRUiNZQ==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:57:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006A_01CACDF0.2154EF60"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01CACDF0.2154EF60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_006B_01CACDF0.2154EF60" ------=_NextPart_001_006B_01CACDF0.2154EF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I'm sure you are right, less expensive is more marketable. Same point I = tried to make earlier. It was a joke. Having said that, not sure I wouldn=E2=80=99t be willing to pay a = sizable amount (easy to say since its all hypothetical). The thing is = I've been thinking about a Harmon Rocket for a few years now. What would = it be worth to get HR performance without having to build an entirely = new airplane? Since we are talking hypothetically, what would that $25,000 engine look = like? How much of it would be Mazda and how much of it would be custom? = If we were willing to split the difference and essentially retain all = the Mazda pieces except the iron housings are we still talking about = $25K? Just thinking out loud here. Mike From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Mike, Would you be interested for $25,000? You see that would be the cost at = least in todays dollars. Some people would be interested I'm sure, but = not enough to base a business on. I think the less expensive version is = the probable money maker. Bill Jepson=20 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: "Mike Wills" =20 Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:02:28 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) Thanks for the recap Bill. I agree, Ratech went way off the course with = their glass panel stuff - should have stuck to the original plan. They = were listed in the latest Kitplanes engine round up so I assume that = means they at least responded to Kitplanes data call whether or not they = are still actively selling anything. I guess my point (and I'm sure you are well aware) was that many if not = most of us have gone this route at least partially because of cost. I'm = surprised that Eggenfellner has managed to remain in business selling = FWF packages that rival the cost of a new Lyc. A friend bought one and = spent many hours (and months) working out the bugs to actually make it = work. Happy to see your last sentence. Tracy indeed has what I believe to be = the right business model. Without him I doubt there would be many = rotaries flying and I doubt there would be much activity on this list. I = hope that your efforts serve to fill some of the gaps that Tracy = doesn=E2=80=99t address (engines, intakes, exhausts) using the same keep = it basic but functional model that Tracy uses. To start with, I would like to place an order for the 164 pound, over = 200HP engine please.=20 Mike =20 From: WRJJRS@aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning (Long) In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, = rv-4mike@cox.net writes: George, Hoping that they produce something that not only works, but is within = financial reach. The history to date of FWF packages (including the last = iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of pricing that is simply = out of reach. I like the concept of the rotary or wouldn=E2=80=99t be = flying one, but given the choice between being a beta tester for = somebody's brand new FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc = from Vans for the same or less money, I'd choose the Lyc. Mike Wills Mike and group, A little history. There is something that needs to be said. There are really two distinct = "Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their = excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly spectacular = equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far = removed from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed = a spur gear planetary custom designed for the task, and a great = pendulous damper that worked so well that the engine could be idled at = 1000 RPM without the shakes. BTW This should put to rest the total BS = that p-port engines won't idle! This was a system that made over 200 HP = and weighed 164 pounds FWF. After building this machine they took stock = and realized that they would have to sell the package for around = $25,000. (In the 90s) They were honest and figured they would have a = hard sell at that cost. They developed a package that they called the = "Iron Eagle" which was basicly a standard Mazda modified to live in = aircraft use. They used an aircraft leanable mechanical fuel injection = and the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. This package used the = internal ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and cheaper than the = custom planetary. This package was ready to sell and they had set an = intended price of $14,000. I think they would have had trouble making = them fast enough at that price. This information is all in back issues = of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett was killed in an aerobatics crash = at that time. Steve and Everett had been partners in business for over = 20 years, including a long time before Powersport and Steve was so hurt = by the loss of his friend that he could not continue.=20 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in Wisconsin. This = is the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would change = the package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which = took a long time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost = of the package. There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a = masters thesis by Steve Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on = their web site. Every change costs money and the final price they put on = the system really takes it out of the low price zone. It was their right = to make the changes they wanted to after they bought the company but, = and understand that this is my personal opinion, I think that they shot = themselves in the foot. If they had sold the original package while = developing the updates concurrently I believe they really would have had = something. People really don't understand how much work goes into = developing a market-ready product. Ratek has suffered the ills of the = current economy as much as anyone. I don't know if they are currently = willing to produce or sell the package. I am truly saddened by this = because I have seen the original stuff and it was a flyable package. I = am a mechanical engineer myself and I've never seen a more obvious = example of deviating from the K. I. S. S. principle. We need a = flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the price of a standard = aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the only one so = far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the = rotary engines flying. We need to get back to the basics. Bill Jepson ------=_NextPart_001_006B_01CACDF0.2154EF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
I'm sure you are right, less = expensive is more=20 marketable. Same point I tried to make earlier. It was a = joke.
 
Having said that, not sure I = wouldn=E2=80=99t be willing=20 to pay a sizable amount (easy to say since its all hypothetical). The = thing is=20 I've been thinking about a Harmon Rocket for a few years now. What would = it be=20 worth to get HR performance without having to build an entirely new=20 airplane?
 
Since we are talking hypothetically, = what would=20 that $25,000 engine look like? How much of it would be Mazda and = how much=20 of it would be custom? If we were willing to split the difference and=20 essentially retain all the Mazda pieces except the iron housings = are we=20 still talking about $25K? Just thinking out loud here.
 
Mike

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning=20 (Long)

Mike,
Would you be interested for $25,000? You see = that would=20 be the cost at least in todays dollars. Some people would be interested = I'm=20 sure, but not enough to base a business on. I think the less expensive = version=20 is the probable money maker.
Bill Jepson=20

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "Mike Wills" <rv-4mike@cox.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 09:02:28 -0700
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning=20 (Long)

Thanks for the recap Bill. I agree, = Ratech went=20 way off the course with their glass panel stuff - should have stuck to = the=20 original plan. They were listed in the latest Kitplanes engine round up = so I=20 assume that means they at least responded to Kitplanes data call whether = or not=20 they are still actively selling anything.
 
I guess my point (and I'm sure you = are well=20 aware) was that many if not most of us have gone this route at least = partially=20 because of cost. I'm surprised that Eggenfellner has managed to remain = in=20 business selling FWF packages that rival the cost of a new Lyc. A friend = bought=20 one and spent many hours (and months) working out the bugs to actually = make it=20 work.
 
Happy to see your last sentence. = Tracy indeed has=20 what I believe to be the right business model. Without him I doubt there = would=20 be many rotaries flying and I doubt there would be much activity on this = list. I=20 hope that your efforts serve to fill some of the gaps that Tracy = doesn=E2=80=99t address=20 (engines, intakes, exhausts) using the same keep it basic but = functional=20 model that Tracy uses.
 
To start with, I would like to place = an order for=20 the 164 pound, over 200HP engine please.
 
Mike  

Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 10:41 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbo Planning and p-port planning=20 (Long)

In a message dated 3/26/2010 6:42:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, rv-4mike@cox.net writes:
George,
 
Hoping that they produce something that not = only=20 works, but is within financial reach. The history to date of FWF = packages=20 (including the last iteration of Powersport) include lots of cases of = pricing=20 that is simply out of reach. I like the concept of the rotary or = wouldn=E2=80=99t be=20 flying one, but given the choice between being a beta tester for = somebody's=20 brand new FWF auto conversion versus buying a brand new Lyc from Vans = for the=20 same or less money, I'd choose the Lyc.
 
Mike = Wills
Mike and group, A little history.
There is something that needs to be said. There are really two = distinct=20 "Powersports." The original was Everett Hatch, Steve Beckham, and their=20 excellent machinist Francis. These guys developed some truly = spectacular=20 equipment. The "Superlite" engine was developed for NASA and was so far = removed=20 from the original Mazda as to be unrecognizable. They developed a spur = gear=20 planetary custom designed for the task, and a great pendulous damper = that worked=20 so well that the engine could be idled at 1000 RPM without the shakes. = BTW This=20 should put to rest the total BS that p-port engines won't idle! This was = a=20 system that made over 200 HP and weighed 164 pounds FWF. After building = this=20 machine they took stock and realized that they would have to sell the = package=20 for around $25,000. (In the 90s) They were honest and figured they would = have a=20 hard sell at that cost. They developed a package that they called the = "Iron=20 Eagle" which was basicly a standard Mazda modified to live in aircraft=20 use. They used an aircraft leanable mechanical fuel = injection and=20 the simplest ignition that was dead reliable. This package used the = internal=20 ring gear PSRU designed to be simpler and cheaper than the custom = planetary.=20 This package was ready to sell and they had set an intended price of = $14,000. I=20 think they would have had trouble making them fast enough at that price. = This=20 information is all in back issues of Sport Aviation. Tragically Everett = was=20 killed in an aerobatics crash at that time. Steve and Everett had been = partners=20 in business for over 20 years, including a long time before Powersport = and Steve=20 was so hurt by the loss of his friend that he could not continue.
 Steve sold the Powersport business to Ratek Machine in = Wisconsin.=20 This is the "current" Powersport. They had grand ideas that they would = change=20 the package and make it their own. They designed their own EMS which = took a long=20 time and of course adds a great deal to the development cost of the = package.=20 There were some modifications to the PSRU done as a masters thesis by = Steve=20 Weinzerl. This is basic information that is on their web site. Every = change=20 costs money and the final price they put on the system really takes it = out of=20 the low price zone. It was their right to make the changes they wanted = to after=20 they bought the company but, and understand that this is my personal = opinion, I=20 think that they shot themselves in the foot. If they had sold the = original=20 package while developing the updates concurrently I believe they really = would=20 have had something. People really don't understand how much work goes = into=20 developing a market-ready product. Ratek has suffered the ills of the = current=20 economy as much as anyone. I don't know if they are currently willing to = produce=20 or sell the package. I am truly saddened by this because I have seen the = original stuff and it was a flyable package. I am a mechanical engineer = myself=20 and I've never seen a more obvious example of deviating from the K. I. = S. S.=20 principle. We need a flight-ready engine and PSRU that is way below the = price of=20 a standard aircraft engine if we want the thing to sell. Tracy is the = only one=20 so far to keep the price down and his stuff is probably in 3/4 of the = rotary=20 engines flying. We need to get back to the basics.
Bill Jepson
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