flyrotary@lancaironline.net Mailing List Archive

Having lost a rotor (the apex seals) on the way to Sun & Fun 2005, I can tell you from experience that you will notice it - it'll be about the same as a normal Lycoming {:>). Just kidding, when the apex seals went, the EGT on the affected rotor drop down to the min on the EGT (1200F) and the engine did vibrate a bit. But, nothing that in itself would alarm you - certainly not the needle wagging or blurring type of vibration. More like a soft shake. I was fully loaded with fuel and camping gear at 7500 MSL when it happened. I realized that I had lost a rotor (reason unknown at the time), so I reached over and cranked up my manual mixture control to Maximum. Fuel flow said 14.5 GPH. A lot was undoubtedly blown through the rotor with the bad apex seals (but might have provided a small amount of power - at least it perhaps kept that rotor from being just a drag on the good rotor), but the power produced by the one good and one bad rotor was sufficient. Again, no eye rattling or needle blurring vibration - but, noticeable. So in my opinion, I don't think the lost of an injector would be any worst. Flew back 60 miles maintaining 6500 MSL and landed without incident. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary] Bryan, I think that if you had one injector fail for what ever reason, it would greatly imbalance the rotors. One producing full power and the other some less power. If you turn off the other injector, it will smooth the engine out although at a lesser power output. That is how that aspect of this thread got started I think. However, my original concern was the realization that we probably were not getting enough fuel to the Renesis due to the fuel pressure being set too low. 57 psi vs what ever lower number folks are using. Some 36, some 42, some ???. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:08 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary] Regarding the scenario that began this thread, is there a component or system failure(other than the injectors failing at the same moment) in our setups that would cause the secondaries(or primaries for that matter)to simultaneously fail? Bryan -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary] Bill, I am running (4) 620CC injectors on my supercharged renesis. They are too large but the EC2 seems to handle them ok. Turning off either set takes little or no adjustment with the mixture knob. I would use anything at or above 500 cc with the blower or 440cc without. My opinion is to make all four the same size. Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:13 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary] Ed, I really don't know what to make of this. I need someone to brush the cobwebs out for me. It would seem that most or all of the Renesis folks are not getting the power the engine is capable of, and at least a couple of us get an empty sleeve(no response) when we hit the last 1/3 of the throttle movement. I don't understand why we are not reporting going lean or causing the engine to quit at those conditions like Dennis did on only the primaries. I think he is correct about the yellow/blue being the best combo for us. If you lose the secondaries on takeoff you are still in deep kimshi because at about 107HP the best you could do is maintain altitude, you wouldn't be able to climb. If you lost the primaries you could make about 150 HP, so you would be ok. If either happened at altitude, you would just fly to the nearest, no prob JoBob. I am pretty sure that Tracy is in Colorado, so hopefully someone here(you?) could have an opinion about the best way to set up the EC-2 with the yellow/blue combo. The difference is about 29-30%. Tracy's instructions say that if the difference is over 50%, you should use the "large secondary differential", mode 6? To correct for it. So would it be better to cancel that and work with the MAP table around the staging point, or go with the big secondary setting. You would still have to correct around the staging point. Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:33 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary] Hi Dennis, Nice experiment - some useful information for folks to make decisions with concerning size of primary injector in the Renesis. I calculated that at your fuel pressure (assuming the rated flows of the injectors are for 56 psi, I derated the flow 14% for your- 42 psi), that you were getting approx 507 cc/min total fuel flow at 100% from your two 295 cc/min primary injectors. This equates to approx 8.04 gallon/hr which at 6 lb/gal = 48 lbs/hr /0.55 = 87.7 HP. So I do not believe that you were producing 140 HP - but considerably less. The RV can fly 0n 87.7 HP once airborne without any real problem, but I sure would not want to be taking off on anything less than a 5000 ft strip at sea level {:>) This is (in my opinion) sufficient reason by itself to have all four injectors near the same size - or at least have the primary up around 440 cc/min. That would give approx (derated 14% for lower pressure of 42 psi) around 12 gph x 6 = 72 lb/hr/0.55 = 130 HP. That is about what I was making way back in 1998 when I first flew. The RV flies fine (but, you won't hit 200 MPH {:>) - my max was around 185 MPH TAS back then) on that power once airborne, but take off run on a hot day was overly long - probably close to 2000 feet, perhaps more. I do agree with your analysis of the engine leaning out once the injectors hit 100% duty cycle, but believe your power was considerably lower than what you estimated. The average injector flow for injectors shown in the Renesis manual are Red - 294 cc/min Yellow - 360 cc/min Blue - 502 cc/min Their max flow shown was a bit higher but I took the average. I presume you currently have the red primary injectors and blue secondary??? Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:26 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary] I've been following the injector thread for a few days so today I tried an experiment. I ran my Renisis with stock injectors (295 Pri and 495 Sec) on the ground to see how it ran with primary or secondary injectors turned off and how much HP I could generate with the 295 cc primaries. Note - My fuel pressure is set at 42 psi. I found I could run around 140 HP ( HP as shown on the Not Calibrated EM-2) with the primaries on and the secondaries off. I also found that as I opened the throttle above the 100 % duty cycle of the primaries the engine would go lean quite rapidly and quit. If I were in take-off mode at low altitude and had a secondary injector fail I don't believe I could diagnose the problem easily and keep the engine running on the primaries!! My theory as to why the engien quits is that as I am running only on the primaries and I advance the throttle beyond the point where the primaries are at 100% duty cycle the engine starts to go too lean and the RPM's decrease - This causes the MP to increase because the engine is pumping less air. As the MP increases the volumn of air in the combustion chamber increases. You need more fuel to compensate but the injector is already supplying the maximum fuel it is capable of supplying. The fire goes out and the engine quits. I believe to keep the engine running when I have a secondary injector fail I'd need to throttle back to some where around 18 inches MP before turning off the secondaries and figuring out the secondaries are bad. If the engine ran smooth on the primaries I could slowly advance the throttle to increase HP as long as I did not go too high MP and get into the lean condition. This is just too much stuff to do at low level just after take-off!! I now plan on replacing the blue 295 CC primary injectors with yellow 495 CC secondary injectors!! Dennis H. -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com