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From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary]
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:29:11 -0400
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Having lost a rotor (the apex seals) on the way to Sun & Fun 2005, I can
tell you from experience that you will notice it - it'll be about the same
as a normal Lycoming {:>).  Just kidding, when the apex seals went, the EGT
on the affected rotor drop down to the min on the EGT (1200F) and the engine
did vibrate a bit.  But, nothing that in itself would alarm you - certainly
not the needle wagging or blurring type of vibration.  More like a soft
shake.

I was fully loaded with fuel and camping gear at 7500 MSL when it happened.
I realized that I had lost a rotor (reason unknown at the time), so I
reached over and cranked up my manual mixture control to Maximum.  Fuel flow
said 14.5 GPH.  A lot was undoubtedly blown through the rotor with the bad
apex seals (but might have provided a small amount of power - at least it
perhaps kept that rotor from being just a drag on the good rotor), but the
power produced by the one good and one bad rotor was sufficient. 

 Again, no eye rattling or needle blurring vibration - but, noticeable.

So in my opinion, I don't think the lost of an injector would be any worst.

Flew back 60 miles maintaining 6500 MSL and landed without incident.


Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc
Renesis Test[FlyRotary]

Bryan,
I think that if you had one injector fail for what ever reason, it would
greatly imbalance the rotors.  One producing full power and the other some
less power.  If you turn off the other injector, it will smooth the engine
out although at a lesser power output.  That is how that aspect of this
thread got started I think.  However, my original concern was the
realization that we probably were not getting enough fuel to the 
Renesis due to the fuel pressure being set too low.  57 psi vs what ever
lower number folks are using.  Some 36, some 42, some ???.

Bill B 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:08 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc
Renesis Test[FlyRotary]

Regarding the scenario that began this thread, is there a component or
system failure(other than the injectors failing at the same moment) in our
setups that would cause the secondaries(or primaries for that matter)to
simultaneously fail?
Bryan

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc
Renesis Test[FlyRotary]

Bill,

I am running (4) 620CC injectors on my supercharged renesis. They are too
large but the EC2 seems to handle them ok. Turning off either set takes
little or no adjustment with the mixture knob. I would use anything at or
above 500 cc with the blower or 440cc without. My opinion is to make all
four the same size. 


Bobby


-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:13 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc
Renesis Test[FlyRotary]

Ed,
I really don't know what to make of this.  I need someone to brush the
cobwebs out for me.

It would seem that most or all of the Renesis folks are not getting the
power the engine is capable of, and at least a couple of us get an empty
sleeve(no response) when we hit the last 1/3 of the throttle movement.
I don't understand why we are not reporting going lean or causing the engine
to quit at those conditions like Dennis did on only the primaries. 

I think he is correct about the yellow/blue being the best combo for us.

If you lose the secondaries on takeoff you are still in deep kimshi because
at about 107HP the best you could do is maintain altitude, you wouldn't be
able to climb.  If you lost the primaries you could make about 150 HP, so
you would be ok.  If either happened at altitude, you would just fly to the
nearest, no prob JoBob.

I am pretty sure that Tracy is in Colorado, so hopefully someone
here(you?) could have an opinion about the best way to set up the EC-2 with
the yellow/blue combo.  The difference is about 29-30%.  Tracy's
instructions say that if the difference is over 50%, you should use the
"large secondary differential", mode 6? To correct for it.  So would it be
better to cancel that and work with the MAP table around the staging point,
or go with the big secondary setting.  You would still have to correct
around the staging point.

Bill B

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:33 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] 88HP vice 130 HP. [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc
Renesis Test[FlyRotary]

Hi Dennis,

Nice experiment - some useful information for folks to make decisions with
concerning size of primary injector in the Renesis.

I calculated that at your fuel pressure (assuming the rated flows of the
injectors are for 56 psi, I derated the flow 14% for your- 42 psi), that you
were getting approx 507 cc/min total fuel flow at 100% from your two
295 cc/min primary injectors.  This equates to approx 8.04 gallon/hr which
at 6 lb/gal = 48 lbs/hr /0.55 = 87.7 HP.  So I do not believe that you were
producing 140 HP - but considerably less.  The RV can fly 0n
87.7 HP once airborne without any real problem, but I sure would not want to
be taking off on anything less than a 5000 ft strip at sea level
{:>)

This is (in my opinion) sufficient reason by itself to have all four
injectors near the same size - or at least have the primary up around 440
cc/min.  That would give approx (derated 14% for lower pressure of
42 psi) around 12 gph x 6 = 72 lb/hr/0.55 = 130 HP.  That is about what I
was making way back in 1998 when I first flew.  The RV flies fine (but, you
won't hit 200 MPH {:>) - my max was around 185 MPH TAS back
then)  on that power once airborne, but take off run on a hot day was overly
long - probably close to 2000 feet, perhaps more.

I do agree with your analysis of the engine leaning out once the injectors
hit 100% duty cycle, but believe your power was considerably lower than what
you estimated.  

The average injector flow for injectors shown in the Renesis manual are Red
- 294  cc/min Yellow - 360 cc/min Blue - 502 cc/min

Their max flow shown was a bit higher but I took the average.  I presume you
currently have the red primary injectors and blue secondary???


Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:26 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 295cc vs 495 cc Renesis Test[FlyRotary]


I've been following the injector thread for a few days so today I tried an
experiment.  I ran my Renisis with stock injectors (295 Pri and 495
Sec) on the ground to see how it ran with primary or secondary injectors
turned off and how much HP I could generate with the 295 cc primaries.  
Note - My fuel pressure is set at 42 psi.

I found I could run around 140 HP ( HP as shown on the Not Calibrated
EM-2) with the primaries on and the secondaries off.  
I also found that as I opened the throttle above the 100 % duty cycle of the
primaries the engine would go lean quite rapidly and quit. 
If I were in take-off mode at low altitude and had a secondary injector fail
I don't believe I could diagnose the problem easily  and keep the engine
running on the primaries!!  

My theory as to why the engien quits is that as I am running only on the
primaries and I advance the throttle beyond the point where the primaries
are at 100% duty cycle the engine starts to go too lean and the RPM's
decrease - This causes the MP to increase because the engine is pumping less
air.  As the MP increases the volumn of air in the combustion chamber
increases.  You need more fuel to compensate but the injector is already
supplying the maximum fuel it is capable of supplying.  The fire goes out
and the engine quits. 

I believe to keep the engine running when I have a secondary injector fail
I'd need to throttle back to some where around 18 inches MP before turning
off the secondaries and figuring out the secondaries are bad.  
If the engine ran smooth on the primaries I could slowly advance the
throttle to increase HP as long as I did not go too high MP and get into the
lean condition.  This is just too much stuff to do at low level just after
take-off!!

I now plan on replacing the blue 295 CC primary injectors with yellow
495 CC secondary injectors!!

Dennis H.

>  
>

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