I usually keep my mouth shut when it comes to P port discussions. I

jerry 
 
 
 
 
 
On Jun 18, 2007, at 1:01 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: 
 

Bill, 
 
AMEN to all. 
 
Richard Sohn 
N2071U 
----- Original Message ----- From: <wrjjrs@aol.com> 
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> 
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:12 AM 
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations 
 
 
 
 
Guys, 
Lets cut to the chase. The P-port rotary will idle fine. The

12As were p-port. Lots of the NSU wankels were p-port. John Deere

MB C111 engines were p-port. There was no comment that these engines 
didn't idle. Perhaps not as smoothly as the side port engines, but

none the less. The P-port makes the most power, period. Mazda

have used the P-port only on their LeMans engine if combination

would have worked better. Don't think for a second they didn't try 
other configurations either. They used the far trailing plug to

efficiency less than 2%. Richard's work showed no improvement to

with the side port/p-port combo. Anywhere but idle my guess would be 
that the inrush from the p-port probably causes minimal flow in the 
side ports. The p-port is open much sooner and flow is underway by

time the side port opens. If we had a source for finished p-port 
housings that cost the same as the standard housings we would all be 
using them and the discussion would cease and we would move on to

subjects. For aircraft use the big p-port is for most cases the best 
possible solution. We can improve on minor details, but not much.

simpler manifolding and more compact package when using fewer tubes

the intake are all pluses for the p-port. We don't have car low RPM 
issues to worry about. If a good source of the Mazda racing p-port 
housings was available for the same price as standard housings I'd

3 on order right now. (20B remember) 
Bill Jepson 
 
 
 
 
Well, Mark - perhaps in the future 
 
 
 
Only so much time and so many things that would be fun to try. IF I 
interpret the charts correctly the P + S type intake configuration 
appears to provide much more intake port area than either the P or S 
type along. Makes sense - if you have twice as many intakes it has 
more area. Supposedly the P+S overcomes the low rpm idle problem of 
the PP alone. 
 
 
 
But, for aircraft usage, I think Richard is on the money, you don't 
really spend much time at idle in aircraft usage and I idle above

rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P port. 
 
 
 
However, I am intrigued by the large intake area that the P + S 
configuration has over even the PP alone and what that might potent 
for POWER! More Power, Scotty!!!!! 
 
 
 
Saw some information on the Renesis in an SAE paper that indicates

six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces 40% more

than the standard 13B. They did not make a comparison to the 4 port 
Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port Renesis

more than the older 13B. They also didn't specify the rpm point that 
occurred, but I assume it must be near its maximum. Also, its not 
clear if this figure was based on the earlier 250 HP claim for the 
Renesis by Mazda or the later adjusted 237 HP claim (actually I'd

either one) . 
 
 
 
The intake configuration and operation on the six port is quite 
involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic Effect. They call it

Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS). Since there is no 
intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use

the "A" pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high

air in the intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down

manifold. They then have several valves that activate at different 
rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential activation of 
elements of the S-DAIS. 
 
 
 
As well as the "A" pulse, the older NA 13B DEI also used the

"B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a burst of the 
trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which

the manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake. But, since there 
is no intake/exhaust overlap with the Renesis side ports, it would 
appear that only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power. 
 
 
 
Ed 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
 
From: Mark Steitle 
 
To: Rotary motors in aircraft 
 
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:12 AM 
 
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations 
 
 
 
 
Thanks Richard for the clarification. 
 
 
Mark S. 
 
(Looks like I should have typed a little faster.) 
 
 
On 6/18/07, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote: 
 
Well Ed, 
 
It looks like you've got yourself a new intake project. Didn't

Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his one

I vaguely remember him mentioning it and that he abandoned the idea.

think it had something to do with the complexity of the dual runners 
and that he was satisfied with the idle characteristics of the

Maybe Richard can comment? 
 
 
 
Mark S. 
 
 
 
On 6/17/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote: 
 
 
Ok, here's the answer to my question. The second image shows a three 
barrel carb with the primary going to two side intake ports and the 
secondary going to the Peripheral ports. Interesting concept. 
 
 
 
Ed 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Ed Anderson 
 
To: Rotary motors in aircraft 
 
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM 
 
Subject: Different Rotary Port configurations 
 
 
 
 
 
Ok, getting a bit quite again. Here is something that some of you

find interesting. Its a graph comparing the possible different port 
configurations for the Rotary engine. 
 
The top graph shows the intake and exhaust port opening for a engine 
with a peripheral intake and peripheral exhaust - such as a 13B

has been converted to a PP intake. 
 
 
 
The trapezoidal shapes show the port area. For example on the first 
graph the first rectangular area entitled PORT shows the Peripheral 
exhaust port open at 63Deg ATDC. There are two trapezoid areas shown 
for the Peripheral intake. A "P" which I presume stands for Primary 
and a much larger P+S which I presumes stands for a combined primary 
and Secondary port. Although, I do not ever recall a PP with two

one for primary and one for secondary. So there may be another 
explanation. 
 
 
 
The second graph is our traditional 13B with sideport intake and 
peripheral port exhaust. Here the intake timing for the intake is

of the NA 13B although it shows the intake opening a bit later than

stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 deg ABDC. 
 
 
 
If you look at the area under the first graphs "P" trapezoid it

to be open much longer than the P for the side port intake (2nd

but the trapezoid is not as high. Wonder what that signifies? Open 
longer but not as large a port area? 
 
 
 
Anyhow, thought some of you might find it interesting. 
 
 
 
 
 
Ed Anderson 
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered 
Matthews, NC 
eanderson@carolina.rr.com 
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW 
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html 
 
 
 
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