X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com ([205.188.139.137] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2110061 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:35:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.139.137; envelope-from=WRJJRS@aol.com Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id q.c9a.11e382e3 (60432) for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail-de12 (webmail-de12.webmail.aol.com [205.188.104.33]) by ciaaol-d01.mail.aol.com (v115.17) with ESMTP id MAILCIAAOLD011-ec104676fa77c; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:34:47 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:34:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 27618 Received: from 65.161.241.3 by webmail-de12.sysops.aol.com (205.188.104.33) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:34:47 -0400 Message-Id: <8C98007A0F7DAEC-F38-BEEB@webmail-de12.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 205.188.104.33 X-Spam-Flag: NO Ed, Jerry and others, Sizing of the port and the length of the intake tubes are the details=20 that will control powerband. P-ports have been shown to produce more=20 power at anything above 2000 RPM. We are talking about details here.=20 Jerry you are correct that you can use smaller ports, no problem, but=20 not a LOT smaller. For performance with control I believe I'll chose to=20 run a smaller throttle body. You can limit the system on either end. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:25 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations Hi Jerry,=A0 =A0 I know you did a lot research on the right sizing of a PP for our=20 application. Any of that material, rationale, etc, you would care to=20 share at this time?=A0 =A0 The reason I am interested is that with the Mazda folks claiming that=20 the six port Renesis produced 40% more HP than an older 13B. If I=20 assume a modest 160 Hp for the old 13B, 40% more would provide 1.4*160=20 =3D 224 HP which I believe is in the ball park of what they are now=20 claiming for HP. Now that sounds goo, however, that is probably at 9000=20 rpm which is probably a bit high for our needs. So if the PP could=20 produce 224 HP at a lesser rpm say no more than 7500 rpm, then the PP=20 would suit our needs better (just my opinion of course).=A0 =A0 Ed=A0 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Hey" =A0 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =A0 Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 1:33 PM=A0 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations=A0 =A0 >I usually keep my mouth shut when it comes to P port discussions. I=20 agree >with everything Bill has written with one exception. I doubt the=20 big p >ports are advantageous at our RPM. A 1.5" i.d. port will flow=20 7500 rpm, >no problem. The smaller ports are easier to time (less=20 overlap) and the >smaller dia. intake tubes are much easier to fit.=A0 > jerry=A0 >=A0 >=A0 >=A0 >=A0 >=A0 > On Jun 18, 2007, at 1:01 PM, Richard Sohn wrote:=A0 >=A0 >> Bill,=A0 >>=A0 >> AMEN to all.=A0 >>=A0 >> Richard Sohn=A0 >> N2071U=A0 >> ----- Original Message ----- From: =A0 >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =A0 >> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:12 AM=A0 >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Guys,=A0 >> Lets cut to the chase. The P-port rotary will idle fine. The=20 original=A0 >> 12As were p-port. Lots of the NSU wankels were p-port. John Deere=20 and=A0 >> MB C111 engines were p-port. There was no comment that these engines=A0 >> didn't idle. Perhaps not as smoothly as the side port engines, but=20 idle=A0 >> none the less. The P-port makes the most power, period. Mazda=20 wouldn't=A0 >> have used the P-port only on their LeMans engine if combination=20 ports=A0 >> would have worked better. Don't think for a second they didn't try=A0 >> other configurations either. They used the far trailing plug to=20 improve=A0 >> efficiency less than 2%. Richard's work showed no improvement to=20 power=A0 >> with the side port/p-port combo. Anywhere but idle my guess would be=A0 >> that the inrush from the p-port probably causes minimal flow in the=A0 >> side ports. The p-port is open much sooner and flow is underway by=20 the=A0 >> time the side port opens. If we had a source for finished p-port=A0 >> housings that cost the same as the standard housings we would all be=A0 >> using them and the discussion would cease and we would move on to=20 other=A0 >> subjects. For aircraft use the big p-port is for most cases the best=A0 >> possible solution. We can improve on minor details, but not much.=20 The=A0 >> simpler manifolding and more compact package when using fewer tubes=20 for=A0 >> the intake are all pluses for the p-port. We don't have car low RPM=A0 >> issues to worry about. If a good source of the Mazda racing p-port=A0 >> housings was available for the same price as standard housings I'd=20 have=A0 >> 3 on order right now. (20B remember)=A0 >> Bill Jepson=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Well, Mark - perhaps in the future=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Only so much time and so many things that would be fun to try. IF I=A0 >> interpret the charts correctly the P + S type intake configuration=A0 >> appears to provide much more intake port area than either the P or S=A0 >> type along. Makes sense - if you have twice as many intakes it has=A0 >> more area. Supposedly the P+S overcomes the low rpm idle problem of=A0 >> the PP alone.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> But, for aircraft usage, I think Richard is on the money, you don't=A0 >> really spend much time at idle in aircraft usage and I idle above=20 1600=A0 >> rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P port.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> However, I am intrigued by the large intake area that the P + S=A0 >> configuration has over even the PP alone and what that might potent=A0 >> for POWER! More Power, Scotty!!!!!=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Saw some information on the Renesis in an SAE paper that indicates=20 the=A0 >> six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces 40% more=20 power=A0 >> than the standard 13B. They did not make a comparison to the 4 port=A0 >> Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port Renesis=20 but=A0 >> more than the older 13B. They also didn't specify the rpm point that=A0 >> occurred, but I assume it must be near its maximum. Also, its not=A0 >> clear if this figure was based on the earlier 250 HP claim for the=A0 >> Renesis by Mazda or the later adjusted 237 HP claim (actually I'd=20 take=A0 >> either one) .=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> The intake configuration and operation on the six port is quite=A0 >> involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic Effect. They call it=20 the=A0 >> Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS). Since there is no=A0 >> intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use=20 of=A0 >> the "A" pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high=20 velocity=A0 >> air in the intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down=20 the=A0 >> manifold. They then have several valves that activate at different=A0 >> rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential activation of=A0 >> elements of the S-DAIS.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> As well as the "A" pulse, the older NA 13B DEI also used the=20 stronger=A0 >> "B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a burst of the=A0 >> trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which=20 raised=A0 >> the manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake. But, since there=A0 >> is no intake/exhaust overlap with the Renesis side ports, it would=A0 >> appear that only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Ed=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> ----- Original Message -----=A0 >>=A0 >> From: Mark Steitle=A0 >>=A0 >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft=A0 >>=A0 >> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:12 AM=A0 >>=A0 >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Thanks Richard for the clarification.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Mark S.=A0 >>=A0 >> (Looks like I should have typed a little faster.)=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> On 6/18/07, Mark Steitle wrote:=A0 >>=A0 >> Well Ed,=A0 >>=A0 >> It looks like you've got yourself a new intake project. Didn't=20 Richard=A0 >> Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his one=20 rotor?=A0 >> I vaguely remember him mentioning it and that he abandoned the idea.=20 I=A0 >> think it had something to do with the complexity of the dual runners=A0 >> and that he was satisfied with the idle characteristics of the=20 p-port?=A0 >> Maybe Richard can comment?=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Mark S.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> On 6/17/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Ok, here's the answer to my question. The second image shows a three=A0 >> barrel carb with the primary going to two side intake ports and the=A0 >> secondary going to the Peripheral ports. Interesting concept.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Ed=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> ----- Original Message -----=A0 >> From: Ed Anderson=A0 >>=A0 >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft=A0 >>=A0 >> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM=A0 >>=A0 >> Subject: Different Rotary Port configurations=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Ok, getting a bit quite again. Here is something that some of you=20 may=A0 >> find interesting. Its a graph comparing the possible different port=A0 >> configurations for the Rotary engine.=A0 >>=A0 >> The top graph shows the intake and exhaust port opening for a engine=A0 >> with a peripheral intake and peripheral exhaust - such as a 13B=20 which=A0 >> has been converted to a PP intake.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> The trapezoidal shapes show the port area. For example on the first=A0 >> graph the first rectangular area entitled PORT shows the Peripheral=A0 >> exhaust port open at 63Deg ATDC. There are two trapezoid areas shown=A0 >> for the Peripheral intake. A "P" which I presume stands for Primary=A0 >> and a much larger P+S which I presumes stands for a combined primary=A0 >> and Secondary port. Although, I do not ever recall a PP with two=20 tubes=A0 >> one for primary and one for secondary. So there may be another=A0 >> explanation.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> The second graph is our traditional 13B with sideport intake and=A0 >> peripheral port exhaust. Here the intake timing for the intake is=20 that=A0 >> of the NA 13B although it shows the intake opening a bit later than=20 the=A0 >> stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 deg ABDC.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> If you look at the area under the first graphs "P" trapezoid it=20 appears=A0 >> to be open much longer than the P for the side port intake (2nd=20 graph),=A0 >> but the trapezoid is not as high. Wonder what that signifies? Open=A0 >> longer but not as large a port area?=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Anyhow, thought some of you might find it interesting.=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> Ed Anderson=A0 >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=A0 >> Matthews, NC=A0 >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com=A0 >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=A0 >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> --=A0 >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=A0 >> Archive and UnSub:=A0 >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=20 ______________________________________________________________________=20 __=A0 >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's=20 free=A0 >> from AOL at AOL.com.=A0 >> =3D0=A0 >>=A0 >> --=A0 >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=A0 >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/=20 >> List.html=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message.=A0 >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.=A0 >> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/852 - Release Date:=20 6/17/2007 >> 8:23 AM=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >>=A0 >> --=A0 >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=A0 >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/ >>=20 flyrotary/List.html=A0 >=A0 >=A0 > --=A0 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=A0 > Archive and UnSub: >=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =A0 --=A0 Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=A0 Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=A0 ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. 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