flyrotary@lancaironline.net Mailing List Archive

Now that is interesting. The plugs have a little over 10 hours on them but I'm running 100LL and may not have had the mixture set very well for part of that time. I didn't know turning off a set of injectors would help SAG. It could be that if I had disabled the secondaries instead, that would have helped too. I will look for any evidence of a ground problem in the EFI cable too but I think it was in pretty good shape. If it was SAG, I would have been in deep trouble if it had happened just after liftoff. (Actually true no mater what the cause.) That's another thing too, I wasn't running at full power at the time and my understanding is that SAG is worse at WOT. Bob W. On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:17:42 -0400 "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote: If it bogged down, Bob. That implies to me that it was getting too much fuel. An injector could stick open because of a short to its grounding wire. If it did then removing power from the injector by turning off the injector switch would cause it to close again. The only other thing I can think would be spark plug SAG which will cause the engine to lose rpm and EGT on the affected rotor to drop. I have been able to temporarily get rid of the SAG by turning off one pair or the other for a moment. Doubling the flow with the cold start will work Ok provided only 1/2 of your injectors are enabled. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob White" <rlwhite@comcast.net> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > Hi Ed, > > I guess I has assumed the injector couldn't be stuck open because I > would have been getting way too much gas to the engine and disabling it > wouldn't have helped because it would still be stuck open. Further > flow thru the secondaries would be doubled because cold start was > activated giving me extra gas. I could probably have answered that > question if I had taken a look at the EGT's and mixture. > > The engine ran normally with the primaries disabled but wouldn't make > power with them enabled. It didn't run rough, it just bogged down. > > Bob W. > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:10:33 -0400 > "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote: > >> Sorry, Mike, responded to the wrong question. Regarding Bob' problem: >> >> IF you have one or more of your primary injectors stick open (for >> whatever reason) then the extremely excessive fuel flow could drown your >> engine or at best make it operate abnormally. >> >> By switching off the primaries and leaving only the secondaries on - he >> temporarily removed whatever in the primary circuit was causing the >> problem - my guess is that it would be an injector sticking open. But >> even if it was an injector sticking close and causing abnormal engine >> running due to too little fuel - by switching off the offending pair >> causes the EC2 to double the fuel flow of the remaining injector pair so >> you end up with the fuel needed to stay in the air. >> >> It could have just as easily been the other way around, having to switch >> off the secondary injectors and fly home on the primary injector circuit. >> >> That is one of the advantages of having the injector "disable/enable" >> switch - you can use them to identify and remove the injector pair >> causing the problem - if that is indeed the problem. >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Michael LaFleur >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:53 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was >> [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> Not Buly's problem, Bob's problem. The one at 8500 feet. >> >> Why would his engine run only with the secondary injectors? >> >> Mike LaFleur >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> >> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 9:19:58 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector disable swtich orientation was >> [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> Mike, I believe the "problem" was in the orientation of the injector >> disable switches in the panel. >> >> Normally, as you know, the convention for switches is "UP" is ON and >> "DOWN" is OFF. However, in reading the schematic for wiring the >> switches, they were (in this case) installed so that "UP" was OFF and >> "DOWN" was ON (just backwards). >> >> So with the switches in the UP position (believing that turned the >> power on to them) the engine would not start because in reality the >> injectors were actually turned off. So a very simple solution (once the >> problem was recognized) was to flip the switches DOWN (which in this >> case turned the power on). >> >> The permanent solution is to rotate the switches to the conventional >> orientation where UP is truly ON. >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> From: Michael LaFleur >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:21 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> What was the root cause of your problem? I'm thinking there's >> something seriously wrong when you have to disable a set of injectors to >> get back running again. >> >> What was the long term fix to make sure this didn't happen again? >> >> That's the great thing about a forum such as this is that we can all >> learn from each others incidents and make all our planes safer. >> >> Mike LaFleur >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Bob White <rlwhite@comcast.net> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:05:56 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> On the rotary engine, it's extremely valuable. I was happily flying >> along at 8500 ft. 10 miles from the airport when the engine suddenly >> lost power (Ground level here is about 6000 ft.) I wasn't getting >> enough power to maintain altitude. First I switched to the B >> controller, no help. While looking at which field I wanted to land >> in, >> I started looking for more things to try. The next step I took was >> to >> disable the primary injectors. The engine took off again and I >> continued the flight to land at the airport. The injector disable >> switch saved me from an off airport landing. >> >> Bob W. (It wasn't a great landing!) >> >> >> >> On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:35:43 -0700 (PDT) >> Michael LaFleur <mike.lafleur@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> > Is there a reason you need an injector disable switch? >> > >> > Just looks like another failure point and an increase in risk. >> > >> > Mike LaFleur >> > >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> > From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19:39 AM >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> > >> > Dave, >> > >> > >> > >> > Congradulations on first start!!! It is a real rush to hear your >> baby breathe its first breath. >> > >> > >> > >> > As for the "Disable" switches, Tracy and I had a discussion on this >> issue just a few weeks back. He assured me that I wasn't the only one >> confused by the logic of the disable switches. He now recommends that UP >> be ON (normal operation), and DOWN be DISABLE. My little pea brain >> understands that. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Glad you figured it out so quickly. >> > >> > >> > >> > Mark S. >> > >> > >> > >> > On 5/30/07, David Staten <Dastaten@earthlink.net> wrote: >> > We are prolly gonna go with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That seems >> to be >> > the simplest for us southerners :) >> > >> > >> > Yea.. it was the injector power switches. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > Bob White wrote: >> > >> > >Congratulations Dave and Chris. Brings back memories of my first >> > >engine start. Are the switches you had to turn over the injector >> > >> > >disable switches? If that was my diagram, up is for _disable_ and >> down >> > >is for run! As long as they work the way you want that's the way >> to >> > >wire them. :) >> > > >> > >Bob W. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06 -0500 >> > >"Christopher Barber" <CBarber@TexasAttorney.net> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >>Oh, and for those playing along, we did install the check valve >> properly <g>. So far only a minor oil leak from a plug in the engine >> Dave thinks he may have just snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me to >> get back to and a small coolent leak on a temporay hose connection. >> Really, really small in both cases....almost non issues. FWIW. >> > >> > >> >> > >>Thanks again for y'all's support and well wishes. >> > >> >> > >>All the best, >> > >> >> > >>Chris >> > >>Houston, Texas >> > >>Ellington Field (EFD) >> > >> >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> From: Christopher Barber >> > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54 PM >> > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> It actually started. We turned it off and it started again. >> WAHOOOOO. But a mear wahoooo doesn't quite express the amazing feeling >> and sense of accomplisment of first engine start of the 2nd gen, turbo >> housing 13b. >> > >> > >> >> > >> David and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years ago. Dave did most the >> teardown, cleaning, measureing tolerance etc and we both rebuilt it >> following along Bruce T's video and the Haynes shop manual. Dave final >> install on the CC engine mount and Tracy's PSRU. I ran the wires, >> hoses...and the rest. A true joint effort. >> > >> > >> >> > >> We tried last night to no avail. Turns out when I wired the >> injector switches based on a great diagram from the Flyrotary list, the >> illustration stated "top" and I installed that end up with the swithes >> being up when on. However, when I was checking my wires this pm I >> noticed that power was coming through the switch when the switch was >> down.....doh! So, I turned them over and rechecked the rest of my wires >> and grounds. >> > >> > >> >> > >> In a damn optomistic gesture while in a pessimistic mood, my >> hangar mate, Richard Sessions (who is restoring a VariEZ) and my S/O, >> Jana and I pushed the tale of the Velocity out the hangar door (of course >> it started sprinkling <g>) (Dave was still at work). We took basic >> security procedures, ie showing Jana how to use the fire estingusher. I >> turned on the switches (including the now correclty mounted injector >> switches), turned on the primary fuel pump, hit the starter button and >> DAMN, it fired.........SCARED THE HELL out of us.......you should have >> seen my two Cairn Terriers (Winston and Madison) head for the hills >> (well, Houston has no hills, but y'all get the idea). We kinda looked at >> each other in a mixed shock and amazement and checke that we didn't blow >> anything off. We actually mixed fuel, air, compression and spark and got >> combustion.....who'ed of thunk it? >> > >> > >> >> > >> We waited for the portable battery charger/starter to bring the >> battery back up and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, press the starter >> button......damn, it sputtered and started (after some cranking). It >> started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, so I brought the throttle to >> closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the fuel pump and it stopped. Go >> figure. >> > >> > >> >> > >> Well, we did this a few more times, never running it too long >> since we do not yet have sensors on it yet. Also, Dave got off work and >> came by to join the fun. Just the fact it actually ran was great. Now >> that Tracy should be getting back into town, we should be able to order >> the correct sensors to replace the ones that were missplaced along the >> way. >> > >> > >> >> > >> Not quite sure what to work on now. Obviously we will want to >> smooth it out and get it to start easily. It is currently running better >> on B than A. I may have inavertanly changed someting on A while messing >> with it during start sessions (may need to reset A...donno yet). I think >> I will now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it easier to >> manipulate the stuff in the cabin. Righ now the panel is laying where >> the front seats should be. So this may be a good starting point while >> waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not ruining my new engine. >> > >> > >> >> > >> Y'all's support and words of wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks >> great products it what helped make this a reality. Thanks for being >> there. NOW THE REAL WORK (read that as fun) BEGINS. >> > >> > >> >> > >> Dave will be posting a much more technical account >> soon....heck, I bet we both rushed home so we could annouce it to the >> world. >> > >> >> > >> Thanks. >> > >> >> > >> All the best, >> > >> > >> >> > >> Chris >> > >> Velocity N17010 >> > >> w/ a Rotary 13b...that actually runs. >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: >> > http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com >> 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding >> Cables for your rotary installation - >> http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/