X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from alnrmhc13.comcast.net ([206.18.177.53] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2079197 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 01 Jun 2007 16:48:31 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=206.18.177.53; envelope-from=rlwhite@comcast.net Received: from rlwhite (c-68-35-160-229.hsd1.nm.comcast.net[68.35.160.229]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc13) with SMTP id <20070601204743b1300qh9j5e>; Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:47:54 +0000 Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:48:25 -0600 From: Bob White To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Message-Id: <20070601144825.95205989.rlwhite@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.2 (GTK+ 2.10.11; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that is interesting. The plugs have a little over 10 hours on them but I'm running 100LL and may not have had the mixture set very well for part of that time. I didn't know turning off a set of injectors would help SAG. It could be that if I had disabled the secondaries instead, that would have helped too. I will look for any evidence of a ground problem in the EFI cable too but I think it was in pretty good shape. If it was SAG, I would have been in deep trouble if it had happened just after liftoff. (Actually true no mater what the cause.) That's another thing too, I wasn't running at full power at the time and my understanding is that SAG is worse at WOT. Bob W. On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:17:42 -0400 "Ed Anderson" wrote: > If it bogged down, Bob. That implies to me that it was getting too much > fuel. An injector could stick open because of a short to its grounding > wire. If it did then removing power from the injector by turning off the > injector switch would cause it to close again. The only other thing I can > think would be spark plug SAG which will cause the engine to lose rpm and > EGT on the affected rotor to drop. I have been able to temporarily get rid > of the SAG by turning off one pair or the other for a moment. > > Doubling the flow with the cold start will work Ok provided only 1/2 of your > injectors are enabled. > > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob White" > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:46 PM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was [FlyRotary] > Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > I guess I has assumed the injector couldn't be stuck open because I > > would have been getting way too much gas to the engine and disabling it > > wouldn't have helped because it would still be stuck open. Further > > flow thru the secondaries would be doubled because cold start was > > activated giving me extra gas. I could probably have answered that > > question if I had taken a look at the EGT's and mixture. > > > > The engine ran normally with the primaries disabled but wouldn't make > > power with them enabled. It didn't run rough, it just bogged down. > > > > Bob W. > > > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:10:33 -0400 > > "Ed Anderson" wrote: > > > >> Sorry, Mike, responded to the wrong question. Regarding Bob' problem: > >> > >> IF you have one or more of your primary injectors stick open (for > >> whatever reason) then the extremely excessive fuel flow could drown your > >> engine or at best make it operate abnormally. > >> > >> By switching off the primaries and leaving only the secondaries on - he > >> temporarily removed whatever in the primary circuit was causing the > >> problem - my guess is that it would be an injector sticking open. But > >> even if it was an injector sticking close and causing abnormal engine > >> running due to too little fuel - by switching off the offending pair > >> causes the EC2 to double the fuel flow of the remaining injector pair so > >> you end up with the fuel needed to stay in the air. > >> > >> It could have just as easily been the other way around, having to switch > >> off the secondary injectors and fly home on the primary injector circuit. > >> > >> That is one of the advantages of having the injector "disable/enable" > >> switch - you can use them to identify and remove the injector pair > >> causing the problem - if that is indeed the problem. > >> > >> > >> Ed > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Michael LaFleur > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:53 PM > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was > >> [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > >> > >> > >> Not Buly's problem, Bob's problem. The one at 8500 feet. > >> > >> Why would his engine run only with the secondary injectors? > >> > >> Mike LaFleur > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Ed Anderson > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 9:19:58 AM > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector disable swtich orientation was > >> [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > >> > >> > >> Mike, I believe the "problem" was in the orientation of the injector > >> disable switches in the panel. > >> > >> Normally, as you know, the convention for switches is "UP" is ON and > >> "DOWN" is OFF. However, in reading the schematic for wiring the > >> switches, they were (in this case) installed so that "UP" was OFF and > >> "DOWN" was ON (just backwards). > >> > >> So with the switches in the UP position (believing that turned the > >> power on to them) the engine would not start because in reality the > >> injectors were actually turned off. So a very simple solution (once the > >> problem was recognized) was to flip the switches DOWN (which in this > >> case turned the power on). > >> > >> The permanent solution is to rotate the switches to the conventional > >> orientation where UP is truly ON. > >> > >> Ed > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Michael LaFleur > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:21 AM > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > >> > >> > >> What was the root cause of your problem? I'm thinking there's > >> something seriously wrong when you have to disable a set of injectors to > >> get back running again. > >> > >> What was the long term fix to make sure this didn't happen again? > >> > >> That's the great thing about a forum such as this is that we can all > >> learn from each others incidents and make all our planes safer. > >> > >> Mike LaFleur > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Bob White > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:05:56 PM > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > >> > >> > >> Hi Mike, > >> > >> On the rotary engine, it's extremely valuable. I was happily flying > >> along at 8500 ft. 10 miles from the airport when the engine suddenly > >> lost power (Ground level here is about 6000 ft.) I wasn't getting > >> enough power to maintain altitude. First I switched to the B > >> controller, no help. While looking at which field I wanted to land > >> in, > >> I started looking for more things to try. The next step I took was > >> to > >> disable the primary injectors. The engine took off again and I > >> continued the flight to land at the airport. The injector disable > >> switch saved me from an off airport landing. > >> > >> Bob W. (It wasn't a great landing!) > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:35:43 -0700 (PDT) > >> Michael LaFleur wrote: > >> > >> > Is there a reason you need an injector disable switch? > >> > > >> > Just looks like another failure point and an increase in risk. > >> > > >> > Mike LaFleur > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ---- > >> > From: Mark Steitle > >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19:39 AM > >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > >> > > >> > Dave, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Congradulations on first start!!! It is a real rush to hear your > >> baby breathe its first breath. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > As for the "Disable" switches, Tracy and I had a discussion on this > >> issue just a few weeks back. He assured me that I wasn't the only one > >> confused by the logic of the disable switches. He now recommends that UP > >> be ON (normal operation), and DOWN be DISABLE. My little pea brain > >> understands that. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Glad you figured it out so quickly. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Mark S. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 5/30/07, David Staten wrote: > >> > We are prolly gonna go with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That seems > >> to be > >> > the simplest for us southerners :) > >> > > >> > > >> > Yea.. it was the injector power switches. > >> > > >> > Dave > >> > > >> > Bob White wrote: > >> > > >> > >Congratulations Dave and Chris. Brings back memories of my first > >> > >engine start. Are the switches you had to turn over the injector > >> > > >> > >disable switches? If that was my diagram, up is for _disable_ and > >> down > >> > >is for run! As long as they work the way you want that's the way > >> to > >> > >wire them. :) > >> > > > >> > >Bob W. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06 -0500 > >> > >"Christopher Barber" wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >>Oh, and for those playing along, we did install the check valve > >> properly . So far only a minor oil leak from a plug in the engine > >> Dave thinks he may have just snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me to > >> get back to and a small coolent leak on a temporay hose connection. > >> Really, really small in both cases....almost non issues. FWIW. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >>Thanks again for y'all's support and well wishes. > >> > >> > >> > >>All the best, > >> > >> > >> > >>Chris > >> > >>Houston, Texas > >> > >>Ellington Field (EFD) > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> From: Christopher Barber > >> > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54 PM > >> > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> It actually started. We turned it off and it started again. > >> WAHOOOOO. But a mear wahoooo doesn't quite express the amazing feeling > >> and sense of accomplisment of first engine start of the 2nd gen, turbo > >> housing 13b. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> David and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years ago. Dave did most the > >> teardown, cleaning, measureing tolerance etc and we both rebuilt it > >> following along Bruce T's video and the Haynes shop manual. Dave final > >> install on the CC engine mount and Tracy's PSRU. I ran the wires, > >> hoses...and the rest. A true joint effort. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> We tried last night to no avail. Turns out when I wired the > >> injector switches based on a great diagram from the Flyrotary list, the > >> illustration stated "top" and I installed that end up with the swithes > >> being up when on. However, when I was checking my wires this pm I > >> noticed that power was coming through the switch when the switch was > >> down.....doh! So, I turned them over and rechecked the rest of my wires > >> and grounds. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> In a damn optomistic gesture while in a pessimistic mood, my > >> hangar mate, Richard Sessions (who is restoring a VariEZ) and my S/O, > >> Jana and I pushed the tale of the Velocity out the hangar door (of course > >> it started sprinkling ) (Dave was still at work). We took basic > >> security procedures, ie showing Jana how to use the fire estingusher. I > >> turned on the switches (including the now correclty mounted injector > >> switches), turned on the primary fuel pump, hit the starter button and > >> DAMN, it fired.........SCARED THE HELL out of us.......you should have > >> seen my two Cairn Terriers (Winston and Madison) head for the hills > >> (well, Houston has no hills, but y'all get the idea). We kinda looked at > >> each other in a mixed shock and amazement and checke that we didn't blow > >> anything off. We actually mixed fuel, air, compression and spark and got > >> combustion.....who'ed of thunk it? > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> We waited for the portable battery charger/starter to bring the > >> battery back up and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, press the starter > >> button......damn, it sputtered and started (after some cranking). It > >> started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, so I brought the throttle to > >> closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the fuel pump and it stopped. Go > >> figure. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, we did this a few more times, never running it too long > >> since we do not yet have sensors on it yet. Also, Dave got off work and > >> came by to join the fun. Just the fact it actually ran was great. Now > >> that Tracy should be getting back into town, we should be able to order > >> the correct sensors to replace the ones that were missplaced along the > >> way. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Not quite sure what to work on now. Obviously we will want to > >> smooth it out and get it to start easily. It is currently running better > >> on B than A. I may have inavertanly changed someting on A while messing > >> with it during start sessions (may need to reset A...donno yet). I think > >> I will now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it easier to > >> manipulate the stuff in the cabin. Righ now the panel is laying where > >> the front seats should be. So this may be a good starting point while > >> waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not ruining my new engine. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Y'all's support and words of wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks > >> great products it what helped make this a reality. Thanks for being > >> there. NOW THE REAL WORK (read that as fun) BEGINS. > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Dave will be posting a much more technical account > >> soon....heck, I bet we both rushed home so we could annouce it to the > >> world. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> All the best, > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> Chris > >> > >> Velocity N17010 > >> > >> w/ a Rotary 13b...that actually runs. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Homepage: > >> > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> > Archive and UnSub: > >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > >> 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > >> Cables for your rotary installation - > >> http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ > >> > >> -- > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive and UnSub: > >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > > Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/