Ed, Call me paranoid, but my ES has three separate means
to determine fuel level.  The first is the EM-2 that
calculates the injector opening times and calculates
fuel used/remaining.  The second is the BMA EFIS-1, utilizing capacitive fuel probes, which show the
fuel level in each tank via two fuel guages.  The
last ditch effort is two GEMS ELS-1100 sensors, one
in each tank that lite two LEDs when the fuel in the
tank reaches 7 gallons.  Sort of a "reserve" warning
indicator.  So, I hope to never become a member of
the Rotary Glider Society, at least due to fuel
starvation.
 
Mark S.    ________________________________

From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Ed
Anderson
Sent: Mon 12/4/2006 2:10 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges


I agree TJ.
 
However, just because you do know you bird's drink
rate and how much you started out with does not
preclude distractions, weather,  miscalculations,
and general heads up and locked situation from
getting a pilot into a fuel corner.  No blame - I
agree - just lessons learned.  Again, its my view
that ultimately the pilot (in most cases) is the one
that is either responsible or could have made the
difference - if......   But, at least if  you do refuel when the opportunity
presents itself, you have removed one significant
factor and have given yourself more time.  I never
take off without at least 1/2 of my fuel capacity
and then only on hot days and a short runway where I
feel getting my butt above the tree line is equally
important to having sufficient fuel {:>).
 
The only time (as one old barn stormer is quoted
saying) that you can have too much fuel is when you
are on fire {:>).
 
Ed

----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas y Reina Jakits
<mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net>   To: Rotary motors in aircraft
<mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>   Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges

Ed,
you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge
errors/etc.. But you do generally know how much your
bird drinks - keeping going, because "there should
be enough" is a no-no. One knows you have or you don't. Fill her up and you KNOW what you have....
It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up??
I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate
enough to survive - I never try to blame the pilot,
as I know how things come to be bad and then go
worse - I just try to use these real world examples
to show wrong believes/procedures to fellow pilots. Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they choose to
listen. Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys
have "can't happen to me!" or "Hey, I am the king of
the sky and the universe!" attitude - until the S
hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive
and LEARN from it!
E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of
days ago a college had close call ( Helo totaled,
but everyone walked), just because he "could!" -
when the performance charts couldn't, experience
said "no!", Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" -
Finding excuses is the next! TJ :(

----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Anderson
<mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>   To: Rotary motors in aircraft
<mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>   Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:58 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges

Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that
at every stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the
wing tanks and drain the body tank. The first based
on experience and the second on age.  {:>)  Both now
essential requirements.   Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at
least a degree of uncertainty with it.  Even with
fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer meters, there
are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading
them, accuracy, etc.  How much did you really put in
that tank - base on what the pump fuel meter showed
- is it accurate? did you zero out the meter before
starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air
pockets out? etc., etc.   Then there is the fuel management side of things
which ...err, ...  I won't go into - since I almost
flunked that aspect.   But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps
the pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the
responsibility.
Ed

----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas y Reina Jakits
<mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net>   To: Rotary motors in aircraft
<mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>   Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges

Kevin,
in regards to John Danver's crash - there was
more than 1 thing wrong a) with the plane
b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
a) It is no secret that the tank selector
"control access" was awkward AND rusted (obviously
there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to move it at
all)
Though it was the selector the plans are calling
for, there was probably never any maintenance done
to it.
The location of the selector is of no concern (
... other than preferred location for different
reasons), but the location of the selector CONTROL
is very important.
As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull
cable, bowden-cables whatever makes it move.
Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of the
game.
Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in
general - he was obviously an accomplished aviator -
BUT for this specific flight and leading up to it,
he showed less then perfection, rather negligence:
a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never
been in that specific airframe), first thing is to
get familiar with at least the essential functions -
fuel shut off being one.
b) IF certain functions are different than in
same type/model airframes you try them out - move
them fro from your PIC position - if he would have
done that he would have found out that something
doesn't work there.
c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel
on 2 previous stops and he declined, thinking he can
"make it" with the remaining fuel.
John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY
not put in as much fuel as you can carry at every
occasion possible??
Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed
to be a very nice and likeable guy, but I think it
is a wrong conclusion to blame a certain
airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a
gross pilot error.
As a side note: We have a similar thing around

work area at this time: A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!)
crashed and died, because he was constantly flying
with the low fuel light on!! Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize
External Load capacity and was flying the MD-500 on
TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no more than 20
min of fuel on take-off....)
Cynical thing was that he had two  55-gallon
drums with fuel hanging underneath when he ran out
of fuel!
Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero!
Wrong move!
TJ

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