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Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 07:40:46 -0600
Message-ID: <5B59870CA143DD408BD6279374B74C8B02D6E912@MAIL02.austin.utexas.edu>
In-Reply-To: <list-1644171@logan.com>
Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
Thread-Index: AccYwHcYDB4GTik3T5qN9syoOle3wAAex8Xg
From: "Steitle, Mark R" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Paul,
First, congratulations on your first flight.  It is really encouraging
to all of us that are diligently working on our projects to read success
stories such as yours.  It helps us to keep focused on the prize. =20

Yes, I'm still working on it.  I'm working on that last 10% that just
seems to go on forever.  I'm guessing that first flight will be in the
Spring.  I'll keep the group posted when the day finally comes.

Mark


-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of fpbjr2001@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:55 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges

mark
  we calibrated our probes to the efis one a couple
weeks ago. the results are very nice. we read to a
tenth of a gal. alarm brings the screen up at 5 gals
each side. the efis is nice you can do anything with
it.
   how are you progressing with your ES.
            paul   N117ES


--- "Steitle, Mark R" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
wrote:

> Ed,=20
> Call me paranoid, but my ES has three separate means
> to determine fuel level.  The first is the EM-2 that
> calculates the injector opening times and calculates
> fuel used/remaining.  The second is the BMA EFIS-1,=20
> utilizing capacitive fuel probes, which show the
> fuel level in each tank via two fuel guages.  The
> last ditch effort is two GEMS ELS-1100 sensors, one
> in each tank that lite two LEDs when the fuel in the
> tank reaches 7 gallons.  Sort of a "reserve" warning
> indicator.  So, I hope to never become a member of
> the Rotary Glider Society, at least due to fuel
> starvation.
> =20
> Mark S.   =20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft on behalf of Ed
> Anderson
> Sent: Mon 12/4/2006 2:10 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
>=20
>=20
> I agree TJ.
> =20
> However, just because you do know you bird's drink
> rate and how much you started out with does not
> preclude distractions, weather,  miscalculations,
> and general heads up and locked situation from
> getting a pilot into a fuel corner.  No blame - I
> agree - just lessons learned.  Again, its my view
> that ultimately the pilot (in most cases) is the one
> that is either responsible or could have made the
> difference - if...... =20
> =20
> But, at least if  you do refuel when the opportunity
> presents itself, you have removed one significant
> factor and have given yourself more time.  I never
> take off without at least 1/2 of my fuel capacity
> and then only on hot days and a short runway where I
> feel getting my butt above the tree line is equally
> important to having sufficient fuel {:>).
> =20
> The only time (as one old barn stormer is quoted
> saying) that you can have too much fuel is when you
> are on fire {:>).
> =20
> Ed
>=20
> 	----- Original Message -----=20
> 	From: Thomas y Reina Jakits
> <mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net> =20
> 	To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net> =20
> 	Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:18 PM
> 	Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
>=20
> 	Ed,
> 	=20
> 	you can always have a misshape/malfunction/gauge
> errors/etc.. But you do generally know how much your
> bird drinks - keeping going, because "there should
> be enough" is a no-no.=20
> 	One knows you have or you don't.=20
> 	Fill her up and you KNOW what you have....
> 	It's a mystery to me why J.Denver didn't fill up??
> 	=20
> 	I also learned my mistake, just was fortunate
> enough to survive - I never try to blame the pilot,
> as I know how things come to be bad and then go
> worse - I just try to use these real world examples
> to show wrong believes/procedures to fellow pilots.=20
> 	Maybe it saves one from grieve... if they choose to
> listen. Unfortunately a lot of the new/young guys
> have "can't happen to me!" or "Hey, I am the king of
> the sky and the universe!" attitude - until the S
> hits the F - I always just hope they get away alive
> and LEARN from it!
> 	=20
> 	E.g.: Continuing the sample from below: A couple of
> days ago a college had close call ( Helo totaled,
> but everyone walked), just because he "could!" -
> when the performance charts couldn't, experience
> said "no!", Hightimers said "What for? Fly twice!" -
> Finding excuses is the next!=20
> 	=20
> 	TJ :(
>=20
> 		----- Original Message -----=20
> 		From: Ed Anderson
> <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com> =20
> 		To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net> =20
> 		Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:58 PM
> 		Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
>=20
> 		Yep! Late in life, I developed the philosophy that
> at every stop, I take to opportunity to fill up the
> wing tanks and drain the body tank. The first based
> on experience and the second on age.  {:>)  Both now
> essential requirements. =20
> 		=20
> 		Knowledge of fuel quantity almost always has at
> least a degree of uncertainty with it.  Even with
> fuel gauges, fuel flow and totalizer meters, there
> are always possibility of malfunctions, misreading
> them, accuracy, etc.  How much did you really put in
> that tank - base on what the pump fuel meter showed
> - is it accurate? did you zero out the meter before
> starting, did you rock the wings to get all the air
> pockets out? etc., etc. =20
> 		=20
> 		Then there is the fuel management side of things
> which ...err, ...  I won't go into - since I almost
> flunked that aspect. =20
> 		=20
> 		But, most of the time we have fuel related mishaps
> the pilot/builder shares a preponderance of the
> responsibility.
> 		=20
> 		=20
> 		Ed
>=20
> 			----- Original Message -----=20
> 			From: Thomas y Reina Jakits
> <mailto:rijakits@cwpanama.net> =20
> 			To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net> =20
> 			Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 12:35 PM
> 			Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: gauges
>=20
> 			Kevin,
> 			=20
> 			in regards to John Danver's crash - there was
> more than 1 thing wrong=20
> 			a) with the plane
> 			b) with his airman ship for this specific flight
> 			=20
> 			a) It is no secret that the tank selector
> "control access" was awkward AND rusted (obviously
> there was a Vis-Grip on it to be able to move it at
> all)
> 			Though it was the selector the plans are calling
> for, there was probably never any maintenance done
> to it.
> 			The location of the selector is of no concern (
> ... other than preferred location for different
> reasons), but the location of the selector CONTROL
> is very important.
> 			As mentioned before: torque tube, push/pull
> cable, bowden-cables whatever makes it move.
> Certainly keeping it MOVABLE is another part of the
> game.
> 			=20
> 			Not to critize John Denver's airmanship in
> general - he was obviously an accomplished aviator -
> BUT for this specific flight and leading up to it,
> he showed less then perfection, rather negligence:
> 			=20
> 			a) If you get into a new aircraft (as in never
> been in that specific airframe), first thing is to
> get familiar with at least the essential functions -
> fuel shut off being one.
> 			b) IF certain functions are different than in
> same type/model airframes you try them out - move
> them fro from your PIC position - if he would have
> done that he would have found out that something
> doesn't work there.
> 			c) I understand John was asked if he needed fuel
> on 2 previous stops and he declined, thinking he can
> "make it" with the remaining fuel.
> 			John of all had no reason to scrounge - so WHY
> not put in as much fuel as you can carry at every
> occasion possible??
> 			=20
> 			Again, nothing personal against John, he seemed
> to be a very nice and likeable guy, but I think it
> is a wrong conclusion to blame a certain
> airframe/installation/etc. for what is basically a
> gross pilot error.
> 			=20
> 			As a side note: We have a similar thing around
my
> work area at this time:=20
> 			A good ol' boy (actually a really nice guy!)
> crashed and died, because he was constantly flying
> with the low fuel light on!!=20
> 			Short flights (2-3 nm), wanted to maximize
> External Load capacity and was flying the MD-500 on
> TIME rather than fuel indication!! ( no more than 20
> min of fuel on take-off....)
> 			Cynical thing was that he had two  55-gallon
> drums with fuel hanging underneath when he ran out
> of fuel!
> 			Now he was made into a martyr and semi-hero!
> Wrong move!
> 			=20
> 			TJ
> 			=20
> 			=20
>=20
=3D=3D=3D message truncated =3D=3D=3D> --
> Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub: =20
> http://mail.lancaironline.net/lists/flyrotary/
>=20


=20
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