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I'm not that familiar with landing speeds that fast (Navy planes - F4, F8, A4, etc.) were typically around 135 on final, often under 130. What I did discover is that if you landed one of these birds on speed and shut down the engine, you'd have a tough time making it roll all the way to the end of an 8000' runway. Turning off the motor is at the TOP of my list of things to do if there's even a hint that I'm going to have a problem stopping.
Try it some time in your RV. You'll be surprised ... Jim S.
David Carter wrote:
Outstanding post, Ed. Thanks for the complete part number and source info - can tell you are an EXPERIENCED "lister" - and man with a good heart.
In 1964 I had to land an F-105D with top and bottom speed brake "petals" stuck full out - top petal blocked drag chute; and had to land 15 or 20 knots faster than normal 160 K touchdown to keep from dinging the bottom petal - and had a tail wind, to boot, 'cause Luke didn't want to change traffic direction on the students returning from the gunnery range. Had 120 knots IAS at the 1000 feet remaining marker (rule of thumb for an F-100 was you needed 100 kias or less at 1m' or take the barrier).
. . . The big "hi energy brakes" on the -105 did the job. Made the turn off at the end (yeah, the brakes were hot so they put the fans on and tires never blew).
I like big brakes. Thanks for showing us the way on the RVs.
David
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ed Anderson <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
*To:* Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 01, 2005 6:49 AM
*Subject:* [FlyRotary] High Energy Brake Up grade
Hi David,
I started out with the standard Van's 500 wheels and brakes as
provided in the kit for the RV-6A. After my brake failure
incident, I did some research about an upgrade kit I heard about
on the RV list. The Cleveland folks indicate the upgrade increases
the stopping power (energy dissipation by 30-40%). I found out
that Aircraft Spruce offers a upgrade kit for Approx $300. The standard brake system is undoubtedly OK when the aircraft
weights in at/under Van's recommendation - but when the aircraft
is heavier and lands a bit faster, I feel the standard brakes
leave very little reserve. A couple of hard stops and you will
find the brakes beginning to slip. In any case, I wanted a bit of
a reserve in stopping power.
Well, I did further research and found that the upgrade consisted of:
1. Thicker rotors (twice as thick as the one that comes with the
kit) - this is the key component as it absorbs and dissipates the
heat better.
2. A 1/8" thick spacer/shim for the calipers
3. Two longer bolts to accommodate the additional thickness of the
spacer.
4. The standard brake pads continue to be used.
As an aside, I found that the standard brake fluid has a flash
point of only 240F, so I went to a 450F flash point brake fluid -
compatible with the old fluid and seals.
I also replace the kit brake lines with -3 (1/8") brakelines with
ss braid and Teflon lining inside, they give a much firmer feel to
the brakes. Again, this is not necessary - just my personal
preference.
I found FAA approved rotors for approx $75.00 each for a total of
$150, so I decided to save $150 over the cost of the Kit from
Spruce and ordered them.
When I got the rotors, I realized I needed the spacer/shim for
the caliper to accommodate the thicker rotor. So I figured how
much can a 1/8" thick piece of aluminum with two bolt holes in it
cost? Well, they cost $84.00 each!!!!!. So, I made my own out
of a 1/8" thick piece of 6061T6 aluminum plate saving $160. I
could not believe this shim cost more than the rotors but they
did. I anodized the plate for corrosion protection. You can make
your own with a drill press, a hacksaw and a file. A bandsaw
makes it a piece of cake.
If you retrofit you will find that the thicker rotor will more
than likely require you to space the wheel pant bracket out
further with longer tube spacers on the bolts holding the bracket
- else the rotor will rub against the bracket. While I was at it,
I remade the wheel pant brackets out of 0.05 SS.
Here are the part numbers of interest.
If you want to buy Aircraft Spruce's Complete upgrade kit, their
part number is
*/#199-93 UPGRADE KIT -/* For #199-102 standard wheels and brakes.
Upgrades current 40-78B/ 30-9 to new 40-230/30-181 specs. Consists
of #66-106 linings, discs, shims, bolts, rivets and nameplates for
two wheels and brakes. $295.65. This kit has everything you need.
This kit is for the type wheels brakes on the RV series there are
two other kits for Long EZ and Cozy but they are much more
expensive as they include the wheels as well.
Now if you want to roll your own upgrade here are the part numbers
you will need.
2 - Brake Rotors (RAPCO) from Chief Aircraft Part number *RA
164-09900* $79.95 Each
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Brakes/BrakeDiscs.html
<http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Brakes/BrakeDiscs.html>
4 - Longer bolts (2 for each wheel) to accommodate
shim thickness Part Number *AN4H-16A* (This has the bolt
head drilled for safety wire)
2 - 1/8" thick 6061T6 plate. approx 3"x1" (I used a brake pad to
give me the curve needed to match the edge of the rotor) in which
you will need to drill two 3/16" holes to capture the two AN4H-16A
bolts. As I mentioned you will probably need to use longer spacers for
the wheel pant brackets, I think I went from 1/2" to 3/4" but you
will need to do it so there is approx 1/8" Min between the rotor
and wheel pant bracket when installed.
You can find the rotors at other sources, but Chief had the best
price and I had deal with them before.
Here are a few links to websites with discussion on the higher
energy brake system
Good write up on the higher flash point brake fluid
http://www.fly-web.org/EAA-Chapter493/news/sep04new.pdf
Cleveland brakes - the 199-93 upgrade kit description starts on
page 9 - top of page
http://www.parker.com/ag/wbd/Cleveland/pdf/wb02b.pdf
Here is the best write up on the upgrade even though its in
context of the FALCO aircraft
http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/LandingGear/Notes/Notes.html
Any question, just shoot me a line.
Ed A
----- Original Message -----
*From:* David Carter <mailto:dcarter11@sbcglobal.net>
*To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
<mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
*Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2005 10:04 PM
*Subject:* [FlyRotary] Brake size (was Re: Shady Bend Report
Ed, I've missed what kind of "brake upgrade" you did. If the
original Van's/Cleveland? brakes didn't have enough energy
absorption "power", what did you replace them with? Are you
still using the stock Van's size wheels and tires or something
bigger in dia to allow for bigger brake disc and pads?
What kind of options do we have for "size" of brakes?
David
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ed Anderson <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
*To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
<mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
*Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2005 9:26 AM
*Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Shady Bend Report
Hope to see you there next year, Mark. <snip> Sounds like you are making good progress (when
visitors are not present I was wondering about your brake
size, I am real happy with my brake up-grade, just feels
like I have more authority over where the aircraft goes. I calculated the ft-lbs of energy required to stop my
RV-6A from 60 MPH and decided that the old brakes were
marginal - especially with my somewhat heavier aircraft. <snip>.
Ed A
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