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Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:42:38 -0600
From: Jim Sower <canarder@frontiernet.net>
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To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: High Energy Brake Up grade
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I'm not that familiar with landing speeds that fast (Navy planes - F4, 
F8, A4, etc.) were typically around 135 on final, often under 130.  What 
I did discover is that if you landed one of these birds on speed and 
shut down the engine, you'd have a tough time making it roll all the way 
to the end of an 8000' runway.  Turning off the motor is at the TOP of 
my list of things to do if there's even a hint that I'm going to have a 
problem stopping.
Try it some time in your RV.  You'll be surprised ... Jim S.

David Carter wrote:

> Outstanding post, Ed.  Thanks for the complete part number and source 
> info - can tell you are an EXPERIENCED "lister" - and man with a good 
> heart.
>  
> In 1964 I had to land an F-105D with top and bottom speed brake 
> "petals" stuck full out - top petal blocked drag chute; and had to 
> land 15 or 20 knots faster than normal 160 K touchdown to keep from 
> dinging the bottom petal - and had a tail wind, to boot,  'cause Luke 
> didn't want to change traffic direction on the students returning from 
> the gunnery range.  Had 120 knots IAS at the 1000 feet remaining 
> marker (rule of thumb for an F-100 was you needed 100 kias or less at 
> 1m' or take the barrier).
>  . . .  The big "hi energy brakes" on the -105 did the job.  Made the 
> turn off at the end (yeah, the brakes were hot so they put the fans on 
> and tires never blew).
>  
> I like big brakes.  Thanks for showing us the way on the RVs.
>  
> David
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Ed Anderson <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
>     *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, November 01, 2005 6:49 AM
>     *Subject:* [FlyRotary] High Energy Brake Up grade
>
>     Hi David,
>      
>     I started out with the standard Van's 500 wheels and brakes as
>     provided in the kit for the RV-6A.  After my brake failure
>     incident, I did some research about an upgrade kit I heard about
>     on the RV list. The Cleveland folks indicate the upgrade increases
>     the stopping power (energy dissipation by 30-40%).   I found out
>     that Aircraft Spruce offers a upgrade kit for Approx $300. 
>      
>     The standard brake system is undoubtedly OK when the aircraft
>     weights in at/under Van's recommendation - but when the aircraft
>     is heavier and lands a bit faster, I feel the standard brakes
>     leave very little reserve.  A couple of hard stops and you will
>     find the brakes beginning to slip.  In any case, I wanted a bit of
>     a reserve in stopping power.
>      
>      
>     Well, I did further research and found that the upgrade consisted of:
>     1.  Thicker rotors (twice as thick as the one that comes with the
>     kit) - this is the key component as it absorbs and dissipates the
>     heat better.
>     2.  A 1/8" thick spacer/shim for the calipers
>     3. Two longer bolts to accommodate the additional thickness of the
>     spacer.
>     4.  The standard brake pads continue to be used.
>      
>     As an aside, I found that the standard brake fluid has a flash
>     point of only 240F, so I went to a 450F flash point brake fluid -
>     compatible with the old fluid and seals.
>      
>     I also replace the kit  brake lines with -3 (1/8") brakelines with
>     ss braid and Teflon lining inside, they give a much firmer feel to
>     the brakes.  Again, this is not necessary - just my personal
>     preference.
>      
>     I found FAA approved rotors for approx $75.00 each for a total of
>     $150, so I decided to save $150 over the cost of the Kit from
>     Spruce and ordered them.
>      
>     When I got the rotors,  I realized I needed the spacer/shim for
>     the caliper to accommodate the thicker rotor.  So I  figured how
>     much can a 1/8" thick piece of aluminum with two bolt holes in it
>     cost?  Well, they cost $84.00 each!!!!!.   So, I made my own out
>     of a 1/8" thick piece of  6061T6 aluminum plate saving $160.  I
>     could not believe this shim cost more than the rotors but they
>     did.  I anodized the plate for corrosion protection.  You can make
>     your own with a drill press, a hacksaw and a file.  A bandsaw
>     makes it a piece of cake.
>      
>     If you retrofit you will find that the thicker rotor will more
>     than likely require you to space the wheel pant bracket out
>     further with longer tube spacers on the bolts holding the bracket
>     - else the rotor will rub against the bracket.  While I was at it,
>     I remade the wheel pant brackets out of 0.05 SS.
>      
>     Here are the part numbers of interest.
>      
>     If you want to buy Aircraft Spruce's Complete upgrade kit, their
>     part number is
>      
>     */#199-93 UPGRADE KIT -/* For #199-102 standard wheels and brakes.
>     Upgrades current 40-78B/ 30-9 to new 40-230/30-181 specs. Consists
>     of #66-106 linings, discs, shims, bolts, rivets and nameplates for
>     two wheels and brakes.   $295.65.  This kit has everything you need.
>      
>     This kit is for the type wheels brakes on the RV series there are
>     two other kits for Long EZ and Cozy but they are much more
>     expensive as they include the wheels as well.
>      
>     Now if you want to roll your own upgrade here are the part numbers
>     you will need.
>      
>     2 - Brake Rotors  (RAPCO) from Chief Aircraft Part number *RA
>     164-09900* $79.95 Each
>      
>     http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Brakes/BrakeDiscs.html
>     <http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Brakes/BrakeDiscs.html>
>      
>      
>     4 - Longer bolts (2 for each wheel) to accommodate
>     shim  thickness          Part Number *AN4H-16A* (This has the bolt
>     head drilled for safety wire)
>      
>     2 - 1/8" thick 6061T6 plate.  approx 3"x1" (I used a brake pad to
>     give me the curve needed to match the edge of the rotor) in which
>     you will need to drill two 3/16" holes to capture the two AN4H-16A
>     bolts. 
>      
>     As I mentioned   you will probably need to use longer spacers for
>     the wheel pant brackets, I think I went from 1/2" to 3/4" but you
>     will need to do it so there is approx 1/8" Min between the rotor
>     and wheel pant bracket when installed.
>      
>     You can find the rotors at other sources, but Chief had the best
>     price and I had deal with them before.
>      
>     Here are a few links to websites with discussion on the higher
>     energy brake system
>      
>     Good write up on the higher flash point brake fluid
>     http://www.fly-web.org/EAA-Chapter493/news/sep04new.pdf
>      
>     Cleveland brakes  - the 199-93 upgrade kit description starts on
>     page 9 - top of page
>      
>     http://www.parker.com/ag/wbd/Cleveland/pdf/wb02b.pdf
>      
>      
>     Here is the best write up on the upgrade even though its in
>     context of the FALCO aircraft
>      
>     http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/LandingGear/Notes/Notes.html
>      
>     Any question, just shoot me a line.
>      
>     Ed A
>
>      
>      
>     ----- Original Message -----
>
>         *From:* David Carter <mailto:dcarter11@sbcglobal.net>
>         *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
>         <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>         *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2005 10:04 PM
>         *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Brake size (was Re: Shady Bend Report
>
>         Ed, I've missed what kind of "brake upgrade" you did.  If the
>         original Van's/Cleveland? brakes didn't have enough energy
>         absorption "power", what did you replace them with?  Are you
>         still using the stock Van's size wheels and tires or something
>         bigger in dia to allow for bigger brake disc and pads?
>          
>         What kind of options do we have for "size" of brakes?
>          
>         David
>
>             ----- Original Message -----
>             *From:* Ed Anderson <mailto:eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
>             *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
>             <mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>             *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2005 9:26 AM
>             *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Shady Bend Report
>
>             Hope to see you there next year, Mark. 
>              
>             <snip> Sounds like you are making good progress (when
>             visitors are not present I was wondering about your brake
>             size, I am real happy with my brake up-grade, just feels
>             like I have more authority over where the aircraft goes. 
>             I calculated the ft-lbs of energy required to stop my
>             RV-6A from 60 MPH and decided that the old brakes were
>             marginal - especially with my somewhat heavier aircraft. 
>             <snip>.
>              
>             Ed A
>              
>