X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 15:43:18 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-db03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.97] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0) with ESMTP id 5953049 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:47:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.97; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.137]) by imr-db03.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id DFACB380001D0 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:47:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mtd001c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtd001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.235.193]) by mtaomg-da01.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id AE107E000086 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:47:15 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com Full-name: Sky2high X-Original-Message-ID: <444e3.3dd976fc.3dff7f43@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:47:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Getting back into the air X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_444e3.3dd976fc.3dff7f43_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:446704992:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 1 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338950ce25437088 --part1_444e3.3dd976fc.3dff7f43_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Jeff, =20 You are absolutely right. Similar logic should be used for all airplanes,= =20 including Lancair 320/360s. =20 Here is the practice I use at KARR. I know the distance from runway 27's= =20 end to taxiway A3 (about 1400 feet) and to taxiway C (2500 feet). So, =20 landing on 27's numbers at the average 1600 lb landing weight and a reason= able=20 approach, I will roll out to taxiway C with little or some braking. For= =20 fun (about every 15-20 landings), I will carefully control the approach sp= eed=20 and land at the edge of runway 27 (no fear, the overrun means I won't=20 stumble at the edge if I'm a wee short) and with firm braking I can get of= f at=20 A3 - almost always. Then, for me, a runway of 1800 feet is for use in an= =20 emergency, 2000' is the normal shortest and 3000 feet while allowing for,= =20 uh, errors, fickle winds, inattention, full load, cranial-anal submersion,= =20 etc. Ah, that's on dry pavement. In snow and ICE, I am pleased to have t= he=20 6500 feet of full length available. =20 Takeoffs adjusted for density altitude and heavier weights will bias me=20 towards the use of longer runways. Like using the balanced concept. If I= am=20 always off by 1100 feet and need another 1800 to set it back down and=20 reasonably stop after a "problem" means I like to use at least 3000' runwa= ys, =20 =20 Ah, I'm spoiled since our shortest runway is 3200 feet. =20 See _http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1213/05103AD.PDF_=20 (http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1213/05103AD.PDF)=20 =20 Possessor of over a 1000 hours in type and frequent recipient of varied=20 "Bonehead Aviator" awards, =20 Scott Krueger Lancair 320=20 =20 =20 In a message dated 12/16/2012 10:15:50 A.M. Central Standard Time, =20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes: John, =20 Great questions.=20 =20 First-- how much does your aircraft weigh empty? IVP's are heavier than =20 IV's, naturally and have higher landing speeds.=20 =20 Speaking from my experience and LOBO's flight training recommendations, =20 3000 feet of level paved runway in good dry condition with no obstacles in= =20 the approach/departure path is the absolute minimum for an experienced LI= VP=20 pilot with a proven aircraft.=20 =20 My LIVP would typically use 2000 feet to get off the ground and 2000 feet = =20 of stopping distance on the ground. =20 For landing, on a 3000 foot runway with 2000 feet to stop means obviously = =20 you must be very good at putting the aircraft exactly on the aimpoint. The= =20 IVP typically crosses the threshold at 100 KIAS. With no wind at sea level= =20 that is approximately 100 KTAS and 100 KGS. If you are spotting a touchdow= n=20 500 feet down the runway it means you have about 3.2 seconds from threshol= d=20 to touchdown. If you are a little fast or a little high and over shoot=20 your touchdown spot you are chewing up runway at about 150 feet per second= . So=20 you have three seconds from passing that chosen spot to the point that if= =20 you put it on the runway you will not be able to stop before going off the= =20 end. Rain, turbulence, etc. Forget it.=20 =20 For folks in the Phase I period I urge you to use 5000 feet or more of =20 runway. You have spent many years and thousands of dollars building it now = is =20 not the time to get cheap. When you are at that 5000 foot runway put a=20 marker at 3000 feet and see how many times you go past it on landing or ta= king=20 off. I had a client years ago that wanted to use a 2500 foot runway. We=20 trained at a 5000 foot runway with a midfield taxiway. He could never get = it=20 stopped in 2500 feet. Never. Never, Never.=20 =20 BTW I had this same conversation six months ago with Fairley Gooch, a=20 retired Delta captain/ former military pilot. He chose to ignore my advice= and=20 LOBO's advice. May he rest in peace. =20 Best regards, =20 Jeff =20 =20 The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around the fact that our runway= is=20 3,000 feet long, certainly more than adequate for this airplane but not by= a=20 lot. The first flight after reinstallation will be a test flight with=20 several different concerns -----Original Message----- From: John Barrett To: lml Sent: Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56 pm Subject: [LML] Getting back into the air =20 My Lancair IVP after 55 hours of total flight time is having an engine=20 overhaul (it was a =E2=80=9Cnew engine=E2=80=9D to start with from Perform= ance Engines =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99 ll tell that story later) and I expect to get the engine back from Barrett= =20 in Tulsa in January or early February. It will take a while to get the=20 engine back on =E2=80=93 all the other upgrades and fixes completed, taxi = tests etc etc=20 and so I expect to be ready to get airborne again in the spring or early= =20 summer. =20 I have about 60 hours of personal IVP time =E2=80=93 50 of them in my airp= lane. I=20 am hangared at 0S9, Port Townsend International Airport in Washington=20 State. =20 =20 The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around the fact that our runway= is=20 3,000 feet long, certainly more than adequate for this airplane but not by= a=20 lot. The first flight after reinstallation will be a test flight with=20 several different concerns. =20 =20 1. Although I have much confidence in my decision to have Barrett = =20 overhaul the engine, it=E2=80=99s still a break in flight and carries more = risk than =20 normal for that first takeoff. 2. Because I am still a low time LIV driver and I will have had =20 almost 6 months of rust developing in my IVP skills, that will be a factor 3. Because the airport environment is not conducive to emergency =20 landing after takeoff (trees and salt water at both ends) engine problems = =20 during this takeoff would be problematic. =20 Port Angeles is about 6 or 7 minutes away in the IVP and has a nice long= =20 and wide runway, so the plan is to head directly there and perform engine= =20 break in over head that airport followed by several landings there prior t= o=20 returning to home field. There is another runway at Sequim midway between= =20 that is 4,000 ft long - it=E2=80=99s narrow but could be a satisfactory e= mergency=20 strip if necessary. =20 Is there advice other than hiring another test pilot and/or buying time in= =20 someone else=E2=80=99s IVP that I should be planning for to lower risks in= this=20 upcoming event? Any other concerns I should be thinking about I haven=E2= =80=99t=20 mentioned? =20 =20 =20 Regards, =20 John Barrett, CEO Leading Edge Composites PO Box 428 Port Hadlock, WA 98339 =20 _www.carbinge.com_ (http://www.carbinge.com/)=20 =20 --part1_444e3.3dd976fc.3dff7f43_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Jeff,
 
You are absolutely right.  Similar logic should be used for all= =20 airplanes, including Lancair 320/360s.
 
Here is the practice I use at KARR.  I know the distance from run= way=20 27's end to taxiway A3 (about 1400 feet) and to taxiway C (2500 feet). = ; So,=20 landing on 27's numbers at the average 1600 lb landing weight and= a=20 reasonable approach, I will roll out to taxiway C with little or some= =20 braking.  For fun (about every 15-20 landings), I will carefully contr= ol=20 the approach speed and land at the edge of runway 27 (no fear, the ove= rrun=20 means I won't stumble at the edge if I'm a wee short) and with fi= rm=20 braking I can get off at A3 - almost always.  Then, for me, a run= way=20 of 1800 feet is for use in an emergency, 2000'  is the=20 normal shortest and 3000 feet while allowing for, uh, errors, fickle w= inds,=20 inattention, full load, cranial-anal submersion, etc.  Ah, that's on d= ry=20 pavement.  In snow and ICE, I am pleased to have the 6500 feet=20 of full length available.
 
Takeoffs adjusted for density altitude and heavier weights=20 will bias me towards the use of longer runways.  Like=20 using the balanced concept.  If I am always off by 1100 feet= and=20 need another 1800 to set it back down and reasonably stop after a= =20 "problem" means I like to use at least 3000' runways,  
 
Ah, I'm spoiled since our shortest runway is 3200 feet.
 
See http://155.178.201.1= 60/d-tpp/1213/05103AD.PDF
 
Possessor of over a 1000 hours in type=20 and frequent recipient of varied "Bonehead Aviator" awards,<= /DIV>
 
Scott Krueger
Lancair 320 
 
In a message dated 12/16/2012 10:15:50 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 vtailjeff@aol.com writes:
=
John,
 
Great questions.
 
First-- how much does your aircraft weigh empty? IVP's are heavier t= han=20 IV's, naturally and have higher landing speeds.
 
Speaking from my experience and LOBO's flight training recommendatio= ns,=20 3000 feet of level paved runway in good dry condition with no=20 obstacles in the approach/departure path  is the absolute minim= um=20 for an experienced LIVP pilot with a proven aircraft.
 
My LIVP would typically use 2000 feet to get off the ground and 2000= feet=20 of stopping distance on the ground.
 
For landing, on a 3000 foot runway with 2000 feet to stop means obvi= ously=20 you must be very good at putting the aircraft exactly on the aimpoint. Th= e IVP=20 typically crosses the threshold at 100 KIAS. With no wind at sea level th= at is=20 approximately 100 KTAS and 100 KGS. If you are spotting a touchdown 500 f= eet=20 down the runway it means you have about 3.2 seconds from threshold to=20 touchdown. If you are a little fast or a little high and over shoot your= =20 touchdown spot you are chewing up runway at about 150 feet per second. So= you=20 have three seconds from passing that chosen spot to the point that if you= put=20 it on the runway you will not be able to stop before going off the end. R= ain,=20 turbulence, etc. Forget it.
 
For folks in the Phase I period I urge you to use 5000 feet or more = of=20 runway. You have spent many years and thousands of dollars building it no= w is=20 not the time to get cheap. When you are at that 5000 foot runway put a ma= rker=20 at 3000 feet and see how many times you go past it on landing or taking o= ff. I=20 had a client years ago that wanted to use a 2500 foot runway. We trained = at a=20 5000 foot runway with a midfield taxiway. He could never get it stopped i= n=20 2500 feet. Never. Never, Never.
 
BTW I had this same conversation six months ago with Fairley Go= och,=20 a retired Delta captain/ former military pilot. He chose to ignore m= y=20 advice and LOBO's advice. May he rest in peace.
 
Best regards,
 
Jeff
 
The= =20 advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around the fact that our runway = is 3,000 feet=20 long, certainly more than adequate for this airplane but not by a lot.&= nbsp;=20 The first flight after reinstallation will be a test flight with severa= l=20 different concerns
---= --Original=20 Message-----
From: John Barrett <jbarrett@carbinge.com>
To: l= ml=20 <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sat, Dec 15, 2012 12:56 pm
Subj= ect:=20 [LML] Getting back into the air

My Lancair IVP after 55 hours of total flight time= is=20 having an engine overhaul (it was a =E2=80=9Cnew engine=E2=80=9D to start= with from=20 Performance Engines =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ll tell that story later) and I e= xpect to get the=20 engine back from Barrett in Tulsa in January or early February.  It = will=20 take a while to get the engine back on =E2=80=93 all the other upgrades a= nd fixes=20 completed, taxi tests etc etc and so I expect to be ready to get airborne= =20 again in the spring or early summer.
 
I have about 60 hours of personal IVP time =E2=80= =93 50 of them=20 in my airplane.  I am hangared at 0S9, Port Townsend International= =20 Airport in Washington State. 
 
The advice I=E2=80=99m looking for centers around = the fact that=20 our runway is 3,000 feet long, certainly more than adequate for this airp= lane=20 but not by a lot.  The first flight after reinstallation will be a t= est=20 flight with several different concerns. 
 
1.      = =20 Although I have much confidence in my decision to have Barr= ett=20 overhaul the engine, it=E2=80=99s still a break in flight and carries mor= e risk than=20 normal for that first takeoff.
2.      = =20 Because I am still a low time LIV driver and I will have ha= d=20 almost 6 months of rust developing in my IVP skills, that will be a=20 factor
3.      = =20 Because the airport environment is not conducive to emergen= cy=20 landing after takeoff (trees and salt water at both ends) engine problems= =20 during this takeoff would be problematic.
 
Port Angeles is about 6 or 7 minutes away in the I= VP and=20 has a nice long and wide runway, so the plan is to head directly there an= d=20 perform engine break in over head that airport followed by several landin= gs=20 there prior to returning to home field.  There is another runway at= =20 Sequim midway between that is 4,000 ft long -  it=E2=80=99s narrow b= ut could be a=20 satisfactory emergency strip if necessary.
 
Is there advice other than hiring another test pil= ot=20 and/or buying time in someone else=E2=80=99s IVP that I should be plannin= g for to=20 lower risks in this upcoming event?  Any other concerns I should be= =20 thinking about I haven=E2=80=99t mentioned?
 
 
 
Regards,
 
John Barrett, CEO
Leading Edge Composites
PO Box 428
Port Hadlock, WA 98339
 
www.carbinge.com  
=
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