X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTP id 6619616 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:44:06 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.63; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=afEmrYXrWC6TB4uKpewTDkYCJGzjtZP8zdZvwOsG3wyVkv2Vt2AczA/A4qMeXhaM; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [72.92.128.101] (helo=[192.168.1.24]) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1VmaWp-0006Ov-3y for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:43:31 -0500 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-43--549682978 Subject: Re: [LML] Starter Contactor Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:43:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Message-Id: <6F13FA5F-3A65-4458-A104-BDE2C20A9889@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940e0bb14a78e478a7b8cf5164227d9e34c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 72.92.128.101 --Apple-Mail-43--549682978 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks Giff, Giorgio Cagliero had the below conversation with Bob also, which makes = it very clear what internal differences are between an intermittent and = a continuous relay. I found it quite enlightening. Forwarded with = Bob's permission. Colyn Begin forwarded message: > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks > Date: November 28, 2013 at 11:53:49 AM MST > To: Giorgio Cagliero = ,aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >=20 > At 10:05 AM 11/28/2013, you wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I read on the Lancair mail list that a few builders had their starter = contractor weld shut. > I am using a Cole Hersee 24047 = http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/183/24047/ (that's what Lancair = supplies) >=20 > Would it be worth upgrading to a Lamar X61-0030 = http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/solenoidx610030.php ? >=20 > Make current would go from 750 to 900A and Break current from 100 to = 300A >=20 > Thanks for your insight! >=20 > Happy Thanksgiving, >=20 > Giorgio > --------------------------------------------- > With all due respect to a staid ol' supplier > of electro-whizzies, this particular 'intermittent > duty' contactor was never well suited to use as a > starter contactor. >=20 > RMB/Stancore/White-Rogers evolutions of the > Model 70 contactor are also available in an > intermittent duty version (higher coil current > and somewhat enhanced closure forces). Cessna > use to use the intermittent duty versions too on > the starter side . . . . wayyyyyy back when. >=20 > The "problem" is centered around the design > of contacts . . . >=20 > ---------------------------------------------- > The Cole-Hersee device is in the same family of contactors as > the 70 Series White-Rogers devices designed for continuous duty, > high carry-current and the switching of moderate loads. >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/koq788n >=20 > Here's an 'exploded view' for this class of contactor >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/mjndr93 >=20 > Note the massive moving contact with LARGE area, hence LOW PRESSURE > footprint against the stationary contacts. This design will CARRY > lots of current but bounces like a golf ball. Especially vulnerable > to the ravages of high-inrush, somewhat inductive loads . . . like > starter motors. >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/mqpd92j >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/mtshbmj >=20 > Nice stationary contacts integrated with fat-wire studs . . . >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/k5674y9 >=20 > "REAL" starter contactors have features unique to a device > specifically designed for intermittent duty switching of > large loads loads. >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/mmvkmeh >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/kcme565 >=20 > Note the light weight moving contact with very small footprint > against the stationary contacts . . . very low mass . . . very > little bounce . . . much higher PRESSURE. >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/lgsmf77 >=20 > Again, stationary contacts are integral with fat-wire studs. >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/kaqevb4 >=20 > Note evidence of small area, high pressure mating of movable and = stationary contacts . . . >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/krnf3n5 >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/k582728 >=20 > I am surprised to know that Lancair is offering that Cole-Hersee > product for this application. I did a weekend seminar at Lancair > some years back and we talked about characteristics of the two > kinds of contactors in some detail. The 'real' starter contactor > was a prominent character in the relays/switches/contactors segment > of the seminar. >=20 > Feel free to forward this email to the Lancair-List and even > directly to Lancair. The problems associated with mis-application > of this particular C-H contactor were predictable . . . but easy > to fix. >=20 > Cole-Hersee has a 'later' design that MIGHT be better > suited to task than the current selection >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/mxer975 >=20 > But the architecture appears to be an evolution of the earlier > designs . . . without taking one apart, I cannot tell if this > device exploits the quantum leap in performance offered by low mass, > high pressure contacts. >=20 > I would suggest that the Lancair community consider replacing > the existing C-H device with something more like the SS598/1533 > starter contactor with built in diode suppression. >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa >=20 > Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . . >=20 >=20 >=20 > Bob . . . =20 On Nov 29, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Giffen Marr wrote: Here is what Bob Nuckolls said aboutCold-Hersee Contractor furnished by = Lancair. "I would suggest that the Lancair community consider replacing the existing C-H device with something more like the SS598/1533 starter contactor with built in diode suppression. http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . ." Giff Marr IV-P N229GM --Apple-Mail-43--549682978 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
From: nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.co= m>
Subject: Re: Cole-Hersee relay = sticks
Date: November 28, 2013 at 11:53:49 AM = MST

At 10:05 AM 11/28/2013, you = wrote:
Hi,

I read on the Lancair mail list that a few builders = had their starter contractor weld shut.
I am using a Cole Hersee = 24047  http://www.col= ehersee.com/home/item/cat/183/24047/ (that's what Lancair = supplies)

Would it be worth upgrading to a Lamar X61-0030 =  http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/solenoidx610030.php&nbs= p; ?

Make current would go from 750 to 900A and Break = current from 100 to 300A

Thanks for your insight!

Happy = Thanksgiving,

Giorgio
------------------------------------------= ---
   With all due respect to a staid ol' = supplier
   of electro-whizzies, this particular = 'intermittent
   duty' contactor was never well suited = to use as a
   starter = contactor.

   RMB/Stancore/White-Rogers evolutions = of the
   Model 70 contactor are also available in = an
   intermittent duty version (higher coil = current
   and somewhat enhanced closure forces). =  Cessna
   use to use the intermittent duty = versions too on
   the starter side . . . . wayyyyyy = back when.

   The "problem" is centered around the = design
   of contacts . . = .

----------------------------------------------
The = Cole-Hersee device is in the same family of contactors as
the 70 = Series White-Rogers devices designed for continuous duty,
high = carry-current and the switching of moderate loads.

http://tinyurl.com/koq788n

= Here's an 'exploded view' for this class of contactor

http://tinyurl.com/mjndr93

= Note the massive moving contact with LARGE area, hence LOW = PRESSURE
footprint against the stationary contacts. This design will = CARRY
lots of current but bounces like a golf ball. Especially = vulnerable
to the ravages of high-inrush, somewhat inductive loads . = . . like
starter motors.

http://tinyurl.com/mqpd92j

= http://tinyurl.com/mtshbmj

= Nice stationary contacts integrated with fat-wire studs . . .

http://tinyurl.com/k5674y9

= "REAL" starter contactors have features unique to a = device
specifically designed for intermittent duty switching = of
large loads loads.

http://tinyurl.com/mmvkmeh

= http://tinyurl.com/kcme565

= Note the light weight moving contact with very small = footprint
against the stationary contacts . . . very low mass . . . = very
little bounce . . . much higher PRESSURE.

http://tinyurl.com/lgsmf77

= Again, stationary contacts are integral with fat-wire studs.

http://tinyurl.com/kaqevb4

= Note evidence of small area, high pressure mating of movable and = stationary contacts . . .

http://tinyurl.com/krnf3n5

= http://tinyurl.com/k582728

= I am surprised to know that Lancair is offering that = Cole-Hersee
product for this application. I did a weekend seminar at = Lancair
some years back and we talked about characteristics of the = two
kinds of contactors in some detail. The 'real' starter = contactor
was a prominent character in the relays/switches/contactors = segment
of the seminar.

Feel free to forward this email to the = Lancair-List and even
directly to Lancair. The problems associated = with mis-application
of this particular C-H contactor were = predictable . . . but easy
to fix.

Cole-Hersee has a 'later' = design that MIGHT be better
suited to task than the current = selection

http://tinyurl.com/mxer975

= But the architecture appears to be an evolution of the = earlier
designs . . . without taking one apart, I cannot tell if = this
device exploits the quantum leap in performance offered by low = mass,
high pressure contacts.

I would suggest that the Lancair = community consider replacing
the existing C-H device with something = more like the SS598/1533
starter contactor with built in diode = suppression.

http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa

= Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . = .



 Bob . . . =  

On Nov = 29, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Giffen Marr wrote:

Here is what Bob Nuckolls said aboutCold-Hersee = Contractor furnished by Lancair.
"I would suggest that the Lancair community consider = replacing
the existing C-H device with = something more like the SS598/1533
starter contactor with built in diode = suppression.

http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa

Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long = time . . ."

Giff Marr
IV-P = N229GM

= --Apple-Mail-43--549682978--