X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:04:19 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm19-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.241] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6586441 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 12 Nov 2013 11:13:22 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.241; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.100.103] by nm19.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2013 16:12:46 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.40] by tm102.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2013 16:12:46 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp108.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Nov 2013 16:12:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 491245.35238.bm@smtp108.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: SZn5sKYVM1lNnuBhd8WyiX.qFtWjPdY0upquJ10ns4.U_d5 r0wrIA6uUfwY3OMdM0zm8UJNkk78DO3OddQTNvnuj4L0xcfBNClnsj3.y1ku hdb4dv7DntddBX4kkpNfZ3PgF7VXeibbnhQ9q6ef_Avdn__fZ5s7CitX4JMO 0.WLD_B4ciZXvdAmdVjLXG3IuKD4cGl5y5gsuuMtiioT281RNLuekZ.L6L9v pCwpYEKibLeItWjQnugsfbm_Znj4m6sTdf7tvMNspuaiZCCW9J61AjamOVTa 6WOm0arVGTSaaegGSbQwXSROeDo.uI3T_Km4.mijRyTlR8qV5KE_rv7_.oVs 9FDgjUD5jC9ESrsWwociE1AuwGbH0.sD9V8chy7I.v1TbYSJZYYtz7oquPwz eCO6kg.DMnetN6mpTff_tKHgtDBlGSKhTRyNVo.CEs941dDRIab12sVXYd77 Cx0ReeoDcqCxP7iDuOT05pKvFIq5rFqygITBSqNAk08kd1gSfgEZPJXopYZZ HA5PW4tNGVigs8r75GpeSJfep0Zo3ZlJMHnZ9brgkeyQgHJ1TBSRptaGiJHJ 2GLTFnlEF_EzbBfAIzyMYYdMDQkZwCBGJDuq_HXqSAAWURQ-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: 076hgjCswBC.G6e0vm7vgvZ9JJ0zmeBo_Oyw X-Rocket-Received: from [192.168.1.65] (chris_zavatson@172.14.16.72 with ) by smtp108.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2013 08:12:46 -0800 PST Subject: Fwd: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem References: <1384185099.9607.YahooMailNeo@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Zavatston Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7A4AE4D7-CD29-4633-A0D0-B8CA14824D08 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) X-Original-Message-Id: X-Original-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:12:41 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mail List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) --Apple-Mail-7A4AE4D7-CD29-4633-A0D0-B8CA14824D08 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >=20 > Howard, > I glassed in a little shelf mount on canopy frame to hold a cockpit light.= While not originally intended to be a handle, I use it to pull the canopy d= own prior to locking. I also use it to hang on to the canopy if is really w= indy. > I don't know if one could pull a canopy closed in flight, but I can certai= nly pull down with a lot of force. Imagine a pull-up with one arm. > =20 > Chris Zavatson > N91CZ > 360std > http://www.n91cz.net/ >=20 >=20 > On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 5:17 AM, "Swingle, Howard" wrote: > Chris, >=20 > Would it be possible for you to share a picture of your "means of pulling d= own on the canopy at the top center of the roll-over." >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Howard Swingle >=20 > ________________________________ > From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Zava= tson [chris_zavatson@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 2:36 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem >=20 > When this topic came up long ago, the description sounded like the latch a= nd striker were not engaging correctly. This could indicate a design issue,= a construction issue, or even just an adjustment issue. > I do recall during construction of the latches on the 360 that the fit of t= he actual parts did not exactly match the layout in the plans. If one were t= o simply attach parts per the schematic, the latch would not fully engage th= e striker. This could have easily led to the canopy popping open given the r= ight flexing of the fuselage etc. Some modification was required to match t= he intent of the design. > I also have a means of pulling down on the canopy at the top center of the= roll-over. >=20 > Chris Zavatson > N91CZ > 360std > http://www.n91cz.net/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tuesday, November 5, 2013 10:16 AM, Kevin Stallard w= rote: > Paul, >=20 > I agree that it isn't appropriate to show disrespect for those who have be= en killed in tragic accidents. I also recognize that flying airplanes that w= e build is an inherently risky activity. No one wants to loose friends, but= we loose them. My own mother died in a automobile accident when I was youn= g. It happens, and yes we want to try to avoid them and learn from them, bu= t they still happen. >=20 > I don't think Mike intended any disrespect but (perhaps untactfully) was t= rying to make a point. I think what he was trying to say is that we need to= be careful and be thinking about what we are doing, or it may kill us. I t= ook it in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way in that he is reminding me to carefu= lly evaluate my decisions so I don't do something that would hurt me or some= one else. >=20 > Peter Zaccagnino said it best when he said "I have to remember that these t= hings are trying to kill me." >=20 > When we try to avoid negative aspects of design it is too easy to come up w= ith dumb solutions like plastic gas cans with those impossible to open spout= s. I have spilled more gasoline trying to use those dang things than with= the old metal flexing open spouts. My point is that it can be easy to over= design something. >=20 > On the pilot side of a Cessna 172 Hawker XP (perhaps on others as well) th= ere is this really dumb seat latch. You have to not only hold up the level t= han allows the seat to slide, but you also have to reach behind you and use y= our thumb to open a secondary latch. It appears this was added perhaps afte= r a seat unintentionally slid back and was a factor in an accident. It smel= ls like a lawyer designed it. >=20 > Can you imagine being in an accident and having to work both latches to ge= t out of the airplane? This is what happens when we try to take the risk ou= t of everything and place walls of protection around us. Pretty soon they h= ave either hurt us or make it so we can't do what we originally intended. >=20 >=20 > I really like the current canopy design. It opens easily. I really like t= his feature, I feel safer because of it. >=20 > Thanks > Kevin >=20 > ________________________________________ > From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Paul Miller [pjdmiller@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:57 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem >=20 > Do you mean that the people who have had a canopy open are somehow inferio= r and wlll be naturally removed because they aren't cut out to be pilots? I= s that the meaning of your message? Or is that a canopy that can be opened i= s a way of selecting better pilots in this world. Please explain your Darwi= n comment to us. I really want to know how that works into the problem here= . >=20 > Paul > Legacy >=20 > PS: for the dolts who can't figure it out, there's another mode of canopy o= pening that won't be solved with a checklist on the ground. Think outside t= he cabin should be the first rule on this subject. >=20 >=20 > On 2013-11-05, at 10:52 AM, Mike Larkin >> wrot= e: >=20 > Well said Kevin.... >=20 > Mike >=20 > Remember, not everyone was meant to fly.... Darwin >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Kevin Stallard >> wrote= : > Pre-takeoff checklist >=20 > Trim, fuel selector, mixture, prop, push up (hard) on the canopy. (five p= lus one) >=20 > This isn't a big deal to me. I don't think drama surrounding the canopy i= s needed or deserved. >=20 > It has been shown that while tricky, the airplane is controllable if you h= appen to leave the canopy open. Just don't stop flying the airplane. Bette= r yet, don't leave it unlocked. >=20 > Kevin > N969RJ (flying !!) >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Mike Larkin > LarkinAviationConsulting > LegacyL2K@gmail.com> >=20 > 602-770-6054 >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.htm= l >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-7A4AE4D7-CD29-4633-A0D0-B8CA14824D08 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8


<= div>
Howard,
=
I glassed in a little shelf mount on canopy frame to ho= ld a cockpit light.  While not originally intended to be a handle, I us= e it to pull the canopy down prior to locking.  I also use it to hang o= n to the canopy if is really windy.
I don't know if o= ne could pull a canopy closed in flight, but I can certainly pull down with a= lot of force.  Imagine a pull-up with one arm.
<= span> 
Chris Zavatson
N91= CZ
360std


On W= ednesday, November 6, 2013 5:17 AM, "Swingle, Howard" <swingle@exchange.vt.edu> wrote:
 <= /div>
Chris,

Would it be possible for you to share a picture of your "means of pull= ing down on the canopy at the top center of the roll-over."

Thanks,

Howard Swi= ngle

________________________________From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lancai= ronline.net] On Behalf Of Chris Zavatson [chr= is_zavatson@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 201= 3 2:36 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem

When this topic came up long ago, the description sou= nded like the latch and striker were not engaging correctly.  This coul= d indicate a design issue, a construction issue, or even just an adjustment i= ssue.
I do recall during construction of the latches on th= e 360 that the fit of the actual parts did not exactly match the layout in t= he plans.  If one were to simply attach parts per the schematic, the la= tch would not fully engage the striker.  This could have easily led to t= he canopy popping open given the right flexing of the fuselage etc.  So= me modification was required to match the intent of the design.
I also have a means of pulling down on the canopy at the top center of the roll-over.

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
http://www.n91cz.net/



On Tuesday, November 5, 2013= 10:16 AM, Kevin Stallard <kevin@arilabs.net> wrote:<= br clear=3D"none">Paul,

I agree that it= isn't appropriate to show disrespect for those who have been killed in trag= ic accidents.  I also recognize that flying airplanes that we build is a= n inherently risky activity.  No one wants to loose friends, but we loo= se them.  My own mother died in a automobile accident when I was young.=   It happens, and yes we want to try to avoid them and learn from them,= but they still happen.

I don't think Mike inten= ded any disrespect but (perhaps untactfully) was trying to make a point.&nbs= p; I think what he was trying to say is that we need to be careful and be th= inking about what we are doing, or it may kill us.  I took it in a tong= ue-in-cheek sort of way in that he is reminding me to carefully evaluate my d= ecisions so I don't do something that would hurt me or someone else.

Peter Zaccagnino said it best when he said "I h= ave to remember that these things are trying to kill me."
=
When we try to avoid negative aspects of design it is too= easy to come up with dumb solutions like plastic gas cans with those imposs= ible to open spouts.    I have spilled more gasoline trying to use= those dang things than with the old metal flexing open spouts.  My poi= nt is that it can be easy to over design something.

On the pilot side of a Cessna 172 Hawker XP (perhaps on others a= s well) there is this really dumb seat latch.  You have to not only hol= d up the level than allows the seat to slide, but you also have to reach beh= ind you and use your thumb to open a secondary latch.  It appears this w= as added perhaps after a seat unintentionally slid back and was a factor in a= n accident.  It smells like a lawyer designed it.
Can you imagine being in an accident and having to work both= latches to get out of the airplane?  This is what happens when we try t= o take the risk out of everything and place walls of protection around us.&n= bsp; Pretty soon they have either hurt us or make it so we can't do what we o= riginally intended.


= I really like the current canopy design.  It opens easily.  I real= ly like this feature, I feel safer because of it.

Thanks
Kevin<= br clear=3D"none">
_______________________________________= _
From: Lancair Mailing List [lml@lan= caironline.net<mailto:lml@lancaironline.net>= ;] On Behalf Of Paul Miller [pjdmiller@gmail.com<mai= lto:pjdmiller@gmail.com>]
Sent: Tu= esday, November 05, 2013 9:57 AM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net<mailto:lml@lancaironline.n= et>
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy Canopy Problem

Do you mean that the people who have had a ca= nopy open are somehow inferior and wlll be naturally removed because they ar= en't cut out to be pilots?  Is that the meaning of your message?  O= r is that a canopy that can be opened is a way of selecting better pilots in= this world.  Please explain your Darwin comment to us.  I really w= ant to know how that works into the problem here.

Paul
Legacy

PS: for the dolts who can't figure it out, there's another mode of canopy o= pening that won't be solved with a checklist on the ground.  Think outs= ide the cabin should be the first rule on this subject.

On 2013-11-05, at 10:52 AM, Mike Larkin &= lt;legacyl2k@gmail.com<mailto:legac= yl2k@gmail.com><mailto:legacyl2k@gmail.com<= ;mailto:legacyl2k@gmail.com>>> wrote:

Well said Kevin....

Mike

Remember, not everyone w= as meant to fly....  Darwin


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Kevin Stallard <kevin@arilabs.net<mailto:kevin@arilabs.net><mai= lto:kevin@arilabs.net<mailto:kevin@arilabs.= net>>> wrote:
Pre-takeoff checklist

Trim, fuel selector, mixture, prop, push up (hard)= on the canopy.  (five plus one)

T= his isn't a big deal to me.  I don't think drama surrounding the canopy= is needed or deserved.

It has been sho= wn that while tricky, the airplane is controllable if you happen to leave th= e canopy open.  Just don't stop flying the airplane.  Better yet, d= on't leave it unlocked.

Kevin
N969RJ (flying !!)



--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html



--
Mike Larkin
LarkinAviationConsulting
LegacyL2K@gmail.com<mailto:LegacyL2K@gmail.com><mailto:LegacyL2K@gmail.co= m<mailto:LegacyL2K@gmail.com>>

602-770-6054

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