X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 07:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm16-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.92] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTPS id 6435225 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 01:26:01 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.92; envelope-from=mcmess1919@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.49] by nm16.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2013 05:25:26 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.126] by tm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2013 05:25:25 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Aug 2013 05:25:25 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 888982.99042.bm@smtp205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: M6CQs2cVM1lQMd_TZ6F5fHMlicd8Q7pgl3Kwy8c4ilclZho rXrSNyooMAHOYbWwlGbmfEJAeANAlO7BR9PPihtbN9TvI5efHjNCan3Lx10P M6Po2gzBxohCNEpgdQz1tcn.f6SdkjpekOC.qpj.Gk6.7O9h3ETDflUAtyzp O7XXUHKaxSeQWMYnEdhNSMJw7lTYMNKVQkh0TIOMAdFi41C7nY89EBjedt5Y WWop3Wob0t9WP7pnoQPCq1._Yg4ODzfsi0nIuixDZw72kvnVnMhd2Q0OjGbP L1Qn9M2l.8mE4RHuEid71oBp0WLtFCOBI7Z5LtS6GgMW_uapq7h1mHmHEHsO sog1JutahMQrtlJTf_Yzr..SR4fDchZHq_n7XHkx1hUw1LPc7bmby3frVf9c hNtzgAhbU3XNOSVrXMx4AC8AuCTSXTmUSNdD8dUpvFwr2vURd3rJMJ.lDWNZ SWO_6sB7n0_P9nAx30kIF34s03EQmG2xzktmuYeZF2rM3w1PJry.xs3hcX2p yLw7VjR6c4uH2INIXAsZw90YaE.bDNHoke1.iqrTThZTp8Sek5ET338l_uNp oPFk0wGhgioFBQgNUbWjvHH5plvz0LESVMvkgaTUEuDf31cVWng1S7TMYMK7 GVjYFB06qhllkaymZ X-Yahoo-SMTP: rK4i7HqswBC7mDE8.sOiWQeO4CeReXc- X-Rocket-Received: from StevePC (mcmess1919@67.187.169.184 with ) by smtp205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Aug 2013 22:25:25 -0700 PDT From: "Steve Colwell" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Automotive fuel system cleaners? X-Original-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 22:25:26 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: <017a01ce9e2e$d83a32a0$88ae97e0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017B_01CE9DF4.2BDB5AA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac6eKBDqPMvsMQxkTP+wNOuAKP0wjAAAn+7g Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01CE9DF4.2BDB5AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug, Double Ditto to what Bob said. A few years ago someone was mixing 100LL and Auto Fuel (about 50/50 as I recall) in a 4 cylinder Lancair. The Auto Fuel (not very aggressive compared to Miracle-In-A-Can cleaners) attacked the Hysol bonding the wing skins on. At least he caught it before he had a in flight surprise. Please don't experiment with a unproven fuel additive in your Lancair. Cleaning aircraft fuel injectors is a Engine Mfg. specified procedure for good reasons. My advice to address your concerns about plugs, injectors, valves, deposits, etc., would be to take the Advanced Pilot engine management course. http://www.advancedpilot.com/ You will learn more about how to make your engine last longer, burn less fuel, run cleaner, reduce stress and more stuff I can't think of than any other place. It was a revelation for me and you don't have to take their word for anything, they have the data to back it up. Steve Colwell Legacy IO-550 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:36 PM To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: [LML] Re: Automotive fuel system cleaners? if you burned 24 gph you would be going 280 (or more) true and still saving 9 gph vs. a turbo-prop. "Honey we saved 55 gallons on that last leg. Aren't you glad we bought a piston?" On Aug 20, 2013, at 11:00 PM, Robert R Pastusek wrote: Doug, I am sure other LMLers will have a more technical reason, but please don't do this! The fuel system has LOTS of rubber, composite and similar parts in it that were specifically chosen to be compatible with aviation gasoline. We know these components are not compatible with ethanol in most auto gas these days; I think you'd be taking a big risk in dumping a bottle of "injector cleaner" in the tank to see if it's compatible with the hoses and seals.or not. IMHO, that's playing Russian Roulette with your airplane; and maybe your life. How about compatibility with the sealant in the fuel tanks? As an alternative, consider tuning your engine (to include GAMI injectors if required) and run it lean of peak. I have 1000+ hours on my TSIO-550 Continental/IV-P. The engine has been run LOP since break in was completed--in about 15 hours--and is as clean as a whistle inside. I have never fouled a plug, and have replaced them once since the airplane first flew in 2008. I typically climb at WOT to altitude and cruise at 30" MP, 2300 RPM and 15-15.5 GPH fuel flow; a bit less up in the flight levels. That gives me 180 KIAS +/- 5 KIAS depending on the OAT and altitude. The engine runs very cool (280-320 degrees CHT) .and I save a BUNDLE on gas. What's not to like about this method of operation? Bob Doug wrote: While wandering the aisles of the local auto parts store this past weekend, I started reading the labels on a bunch of those commercial fuel system cleaners. You dump the container into your full auto fuel tank, and presto, your injectors, valves, etc., are supposedly magically cleaned and freed from harmful deposits. With all the known issues with fouled plugs and valve deposits in our big Continental engines, is there any reason this wouldn't work in our aviation systems as well? (Or is this a taboo for some reason in our application). Douglas W. Johnson, MD PA ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01CE9DF4.2BDB5AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Doug,

 

Double Ditto to what Bob said.  A few years ago someone was = mixing 100LL and Auto Fuel (about 50/50 as I recall) in a 4 cylinder = Lancair.  The Auto Fuel (not very aggressive compared to = Miracle-In-A-Can cleaners) attacked the Hysol bonding the wing skins = on.  At least he caught it before he had a in flight = surprise.  Please don’t experiment with a unproven fuel = additive in your Lancair.

Cleaning aircraft fuel injectors is a Engine Mfg. specified procedure = for good reasons.  My advice to address your concerns about plugs, = injectors, valves, deposits, etc., would be to take the Advanced = Pilot engine management course.   http://www.advancedpilot.com/&= nbsp;  You will learn more about how to make your engine last = longer, burn less fuel, run cleaner, reduce stress and more stuff I = can’t think of than any other place.  It was a revelation for = me and you don’t have to take their word for anything, they have = the data to back it up.

 

Steve Colwell  Legacy IO-550

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 9:36 = PM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: = Automotive fuel system cleaners?

 

if you = burned 24 gph you would be going 280 (or more) true and still saving 9 = gph vs. a turbo-prop.

"Honey we saved 55 gallons on that last leg. =  Aren't you glad we bought a = piston?"

 

 

On = Aug 20, 2013, at 11:00 PM, Robert R Pastusek = wrote:



Doug, I am sure other LMLers will have a more technical = reason, but please don’t do this! The fuel system has LOTS of = rubber, composite and similar parts in it that were specifically chosen = to be compatible with aviation gasoline. We know these components are = not compatible with ethanol in most auto gas these days; I think = you’d be taking a big risk in dumping a bottle of “injector = cleaner” in the tank to see if it’s compatible with the = hoses and seals…or not. IMHO, that’s playing Russian = Roulette with your airplane; and maybe your life. How about = compatibility with the sealant in the fuel = tanks?

 

As an alternative, consider tuning your engine (to include GAMI = injectors if required) and run it lean of peak. I have 1000+ hours on my = TSIO-550 Continental/IV-P. The engine has been run LOP since break in = was completed--in about 15 hours--and is as clean as a whistle inside. I = have never fouled a plug, and have replaced them once since the airplane = first flew in 2008. I typically climb at WOT to altitude and cruise at = 30” MP, 2300 RPM and 15-15.5 GPH fuel flow; a bit less up in the = flight levels. That gives me 180 KIAS +/- 5 KIAS depending on the OAT = and altitude. The engine runs very cool (280-320 degrees CHT) …and = I save a BUNDLE on gas. What’s not to like about this method of = operation?

 

Bob

 

Doug wrote:

While wandering the aisles of the local auto parts store this past = weekend, I started reading the labels on a bunch of those commercial = fuel system cleaners.  You dump the container into your full auto = fuel tank, and presto, your injectors, valves, etc., are supposedly = magically cleaned and freed from harmful deposits. With all the known = issues with fouled plugs and valve deposits in our big Continental = engines, is there any reason this wouldn’t work in our aviation = systems as well? (Or is this a taboo for some reason in our = application).

 

Douglas W. Johnson, MD = PA

 

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