X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 10:45:09 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([71.74.56.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.6) with ESMTP id 6430430 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 17 Aug 2013 10:35:06 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=71.74.56.122; envelope-from=Wolfgang@MiCom.net X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=KJ7Y/S5o c=1 sm=0 a=MHZY6FYWMEQOp7S43i2QIw==:17 a=3Zlka_XeuxsA:10 a=2aGdo4-cfmAA:10 a=ttCsPuSJ-FAA:10 a=rTjvlri0AAAA:8 a=KGjhK52YXX0A:10 a=iL5Cmc-8dQIA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=fLuM78UsAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=5yc4f2cb_LF2u4NCFVsA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=CVU0O5Kb7MsA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=3jk_M6PjnjYA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=xQi13DIvlMJezu9N:21 a=0Ywbmdkb8ksRTvKk:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=aRzkLkS4FTZFgh1V16sA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=Gl9AXaHL1E3xAedj:21 a=p-AXv5nvwnQXOF1J:21 a=-oEosMTWOxuS41bw:21 a=MHZY6FYWMEQOp7S43i2QIw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Authenticated-User: X-Originating-IP: 74.218.201.50 Received: from [74.218.201.50] ([74.218.201.50:1122] helo=lobo) by hrndva-oedge04.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id E9/6B-02415-7F98F025; Sat, 17 Aug 2013 14:34:31 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Wolfgang" X-Original-To: Subject: Fw: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 10:34:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0055_01CE9B35.59BE9FC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01CE9B35.59BE9FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But . . . when you added power, didn't you also increase the prop rpm ? Makes me wonder . . . in gliders we modulate drag with spoilers . . . = how much drag off the propeller disk can be modulated by using the prop = rpm control ? . . . but then again . . . if the engine is ceased . . . the spring in = the prop hub makes the blades go flat pitch . . . maximum drag ! Wolfgang ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:39 PM Subject: RE: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? Robert, I suppose you could run out of gas, but I think the reason for the = exercise was to teach the pilot how far the plane would glide with power = off in case he was trying to make a farmers field in a real emergency. =20 I think you would be surprised about the feathered prop. I was trying = to change my landing technique the other day by changing the prop to a = coarse setting while in the pattern and locking it in that setting. I = had to give it up because when the plane got into ground effect, it just = glided the entire length of the runway and would not stop flying! Then = when I added power to do a go around, the plane didn't want to fly = because of the lack of power from the coarse prop. =20 I was trying this because I didn't think I liked the fact that the = plane would slow down so fast with the prop in fine pitch when I pulled = the power back. I have now decided that I like it fine! :>) =20 B2 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Lancair-ESP Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:25 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =20 Bill, =20 What you describe is certainly a possible scenario - actually that = sounds like my typical arrival. With the engine pulled back to 10-12" = and a windmilling prop the decent rate should be similar zero power and = a feathered prop. =20 =20 But how likely is an engine that fails in the close pattern after a = cross-country flight? More likely something would go afoul enroute, = when the pilot could select a landing spot and arrive 2000 ft above it. = If not able to arrive 2000 ft agl - choose an alternate spot. =20 Just my couple lira . . .=20 =20 Robert =20 From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 2:06 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: RE: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =20 Robert, =20 You should try it under conditions that are more likely to be the = case. =20 =20 Descend to pattern altitude, 1000 ft AGL, slow to pattern speed, and = idle the engine abeam the numbers and see if you can make it =20 I recommend you idle the engine and not kill it, because I would be = surprised if you do make it. I also don't recommend you coarse pitch = the prop since you may need to add power for the go around. =20 Bill=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Lancair-ESP Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 11:18 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =20 Bill, =20 I practiced that maneuver with a Lancair company pilot flying my ES-P = and found it a non-event. =20 Overhead upwind at 2000 ft agl and slowing to pattern speed in the = turn. No flaps until over the fence then deployed everything and aimed for = 1/3 down the runway. =20 =20 I realize the IV would take different speeds but it should still be = do-able with a little practice. =20 Robert ES-P N301ES =20 From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 9:26 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: RE: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =20 That seems a scenario where you would be in better shape with the = flaps up. You very well might make the runway. With flaps down, you = likely would not and it would be very dangerous to try and retract them. = With the high wing loading that all the Lancairs have, they are flying = bricks with no power. I think almost nobody makes the approach to land = with no power. Remember way back in primary training when the instructor had you = remove power abeam the numbers and make the landing without having to = add power? Does anyone practice that maneuver with their Lancair? =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Bill Hannahan Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:33 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =20 Matt, I agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I = must ask a question. =20 What do you do if your low over the departure end of the runway and = the engine quits? =20 1. Land at high speed flaps up. =20 2. Lower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while = making all the other decisions and actions required in parallel. =20 3. ? =20 Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com =20 ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: "marv@lancair.net" To: lml =20 Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off? =20 Posted for Matt losangeles : > I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift = off so I=20 >don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see = a=20 >scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed off to = departure=20 >control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something = the=20 >requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while = distracted,=20 > I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am = down low=20 >like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, = the=20 >plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so. > =20 > I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag and = slows=20 >your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a = couple=20 >seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude = before the=20 >guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the = two=20 >scenarios). > =20 > Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the=20 >EAA, "There is no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental = >aircraft, nor is there a TC". =20 > =20 > Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just = bonded thier=20 >flaps in place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag = of the=20 >hindges. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were = meant=20 >to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is = also=20 >likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year = to fly=20 >all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on = takeoff. > =20 > "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of = safety" > I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree = that flaps=20 >do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing = so I can=20 >see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you land = at makes=20 >such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane = that=20 >lands at a slower speed. > =20 > Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH = makes=20 >sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a = Mooney=20 >board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I = heard the=20 >same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely = reckless=20 >and should have your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys = had a=20 >point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off = with=20 >flaps. > =20 > Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on = our=20 >planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they = always=20 >go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because = the plane=20 >will fly just fine without them. > =20 > Matt >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: Art Jensen > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM > Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv > =20 > Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, but the truth = remains=20 >that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be = flown then=20 >you should not be flying that plane.=20 >=20 > I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety = and=20 >should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe = every=20 >instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree. If an = instructor=20 >reading this disagrees, please share why you disagree with me. >=20 > Art >=20 > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad =20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: steve ; To: ; = Subject:=20 > [LML] Re: To Marv Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28 PM =20 > I second your post. I am surprised by the comment.=20 >=20 > steve alderman N25SA 360=20 >=20 > .=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell = =20 >To: lml Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am = Subject:=20 >[LML] To Marv =20 > It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed = to Matt=20 >appeared on the LML. This has always been a constructive exchange of = >information and ideas. That type of personal comment is not in = keeping with=20 >the spirit of cooperative sharing of information.=20 > =20 > Claudette =20 -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01CE9B35.59BE9FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But . . . when you added power, didn't = you also=20 increase the prop rpm ?
 
Makes me wonder . . . in gliders we = modulate drag=20 with spoilers . . . how much drag off the propeller disk can be = modulated by=20 using the prop rpm control ?
 
. . . but then again . . . if the = engine is ceased=20 . . . the spring in the prop hub makes the blades go flat pitch . . . = maximum=20 drag !
 
 
Wolfgang
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 = 9:39=20 PM
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: FW: = [LML] Flaps on=20 take-off?

Robert,

I suppose = you could=20 run out of gas, but I think the reason for the exercise was to teach = the pilot=20 how far the plane would glide with power off in case he was trying to = make a=20 farmers field in a real emergency.

 

I think you = would be=20 surprised about the feathered prop.  I was trying to change my = landing=20 technique the other day by changing the prop to a coarse setting while = in the=20 pattern and locking it in that setting.  I had to give it up = because when=20 the plane got into ground effect, it just glided the entire length of = the=20 runway and would not stop flying!  Then when I added power to do = a go=20 around, the plane didn=92t want to fly because of the lack of power = from the=20 coarse prop.

 

I was = trying this=20 because I didn=92t think I liked the fact that the plane would slow = down so fast=20 with the prop in fine pitch when I pulled the power back.  I have = now=20 decided that I like it fine!  :>)

 

B2

 

From:=20 Lancair Mailing List=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of=20 Lancair-ESP
Sent:=20 Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:25 PM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] = Flaps on=20 take-off?

 

Bill,

 

What = you=20 describe is certainly a possible scenario =96 actually that sounds = like my=20 typical arrival.  With the engine pulled back to 10-12=94 and a = windmilling=20 prop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feathered = prop.=20  

 

But = how likely=20 is an engine that fails in the close pattern after a cross-country=20 flight?  More likely something would go afoul enroute, when the = pilot=20 could select a landing spot and arrive 2000 ft above it.  If not = able to=20 arrive 2000 ft agl =96 choose an alternate = spot.

 

Just = my couple=20 lira . . .

 

Robert

 

From: Bill=20 Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, = 2013 2:06=20 PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: RE: [LML] FW: [LML] = Flaps on=20 take-off?

 

Robert,

 

You should = try it=20 under conditions that are more likely to be the case. =20

 

Descend to = pattern=20 altitude, 1000 ft AGL, slow to pattern speed, and idle the engine = abeam the=20 numbers and see if you can make it

 

I recommend = you idle=20 the engine and not kill it, because I would be surprised if you do = make=20 it.  I also don=92t recommend you coarse pitch the prop since you = may need=20 to add power for the go around.

 

Bill=20

From:=20 Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of = Lancair-ESP
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, = 2013 11:18=20 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps = on=20 take-off?

 

Bill,

 

I = practiced that=20 maneuver with a Lancair company pilot flying my ES-P and found it a=20 non-event. 

Overhead upwind=20 at 2000 ft agl and slowing to pattern speed in the=20 turn.

No = flaps until=20 over the fence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down the=20 runway. 

 

I = realize the IV=20 would take different speeds but it should still be do-able with a = little=20 practice.

 

Robert

ES-P=20 N301ES

 

From: Bill=20 Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net<= /A>]=20
Sent: Tuesday, = August 13,=20 2013 9:26 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: RE: [LML] Flaps on=20 take-off?

 

That seems = a scenario=20 where you would be in better shape with the flaps up.  You very = well=20 might make the runway.  With flaps down, you likely would not and = it=20 would be very dangerous to try and retract them.  With the high = wing=20 loading that all the Lancairs have, they are flying bricks with no=20 power.  I think almost nobody makes the approach to land with no=20 power.

Remember = way back in=20 primary training when the instructor had you remove power abeam the = numbers=20 and make the landing without having to add power?  Does anyone = practice=20 that maneuver with their Lancair?

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill = Hannahan
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 = 6:33=20 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Flaps on=20 take-off?

 

Matt, I = agree with=20 the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a=20 question.

 

What do you do if your low = over the=20 departure end of the runway and the engine=20 quits?

 

1.  Land at high speed = flaps=20 up.

 

2.   Lower the flaps = and deal=20 with the big trim and pitch change while making all the other = decisions and=20 actions required in parallel.

 

3.  =20 ?

 

Regards,

Bill=20 Hannahan


wfhannahan@yahoo.com

 

-----=20 Forwarded Message -----
From: "marv@lancair.net" <marv@lancair.net>
To: lml <lml> =
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 = 4:02=20 PM
Subject: [LML] = Re: Flaps=20 on take-off?

 




Posted=20 for Matt losangeles <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com= >:

>=20 I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off = so I=20
>don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I = could see=20 a
>scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately handed = off to=20 departure
>control while I am putting the flaps up. They tell = me to do=20 something the
>requires me to look at my map and the next thing = you=20 know, while distracted,
> I am at an unusual attitude = really close=20 to the ground. When I am down low
>like that I want to make = sure if I=20 am distracted it isn't a problem, the
>plane just keeps on = climbing=20 along at Vy or so.
>  
> I also would guess if you = use flaps=20 on take off, this adds drag and slows
>your rate of climb = (I have=20 not tested this). I am able to be at Vy a couple
>seconds = after=20 take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before the =
>guy=20 using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the two=20
>scenarios).
>  
> Another thing. It is an=20 experimental aircraft. As it states on the
>EAA, "There=20 is  no FAA approved flight manual or POH for experimental=20
>aircraft, nor is there a  TC". 
> =  
>=20 Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that = have just=20 bonded thier
>flaps in place so they can't go down in order to=20 eliminate the drag of the
>hindges. I guess they are not flying = those=20 aircraft the way they were meant
>to be flown. You could argue = they are=20 reno racers I=20 suppose. It is also
>likely they are using those planes the = other 51=20 weeks out of the year to fly
>all over the place and those = planes don't=20 seem to be crashing on takeoff.
>  
> "I believe = everyone=20 would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety"
>  I = personally=20 consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that flaps =
>do in=20 fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so I = can=20
>see out the window and out of habit I suppose. If the = speed you=20 land at makes
>such a difference, then the best thing to be = doing is=20 flying a plane that
>lands at a slower speed.
> =  
>=20 Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH = makes=20
>sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument = on a=20 Mooney
>board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a = Mooney and=20 I heard the
>same thing there. Follow the POH = explicitly or you=20 are completely reckless
>and should have your license taken = away. At=20 least those Mooney guys had a
>point. That was a certified = aircraft=20 with a POH that said to take off with
>flaps.
> =  
>=20 Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our=20
>planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to = ensure they=20 always
>go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess = is=20 because the plane
>will fly just fine without them.
>=20  
> Matt
>
>
>=20 ________________________________
> From: Art Jensen <flycassutts@yahoo.com>
&g= t; To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net =
>=20 Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM
> Subject: [LML] Re: To=20 Marv
>  
> Maybe Wolfgang was short on political = correctness, but the truth remains
>that if you cannot or do = not fly=20 the plane as it was meant to be flown then
>you should not be = flying=20 that plane.
>
> I believe everyone would agree that = flaps do add=20 a margin of safety and
>should be used for take-off and landing = as per=20 your POH and I believe every
>instructor giving training in a = Lancair=20 would agree.  If an instructor
>reading this = disagrees,=20 please share why you disagree with me.
>
> Art
> =
>=20 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
>
>
>=20 ________________________________
> From:  steve <n5276j@aol.com>;  To:&nbs= p; <lml@lancaironline.net>; = ; Subject:=20
> [LML] Re: To Marv  Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, = 2013=20 5:39:28 PM    
> I second your post. I am = surprised=20 by the comment.
>
> steve alderman   = N25SA  360=20
>
> .
> -----Original Message----- From: = Claudette=20 Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com>=20
>To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net> = Sent: Mon,=20 Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:
>[LML] To = Marv  
> It is=20 very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Matt=20
>appeared on the LML.  This has always been a constructive = exchange of
>information and ideas.  That type of personal = comment=20 is not in keeping with
>the spirit of cooperative sharing of=20 information.
>  
>=20 Claudette  

--
 
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