X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:23:18 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm27.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.90.90] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6421372 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Aug 2013 13:10:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.90.90; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.101.129] by nm27.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2013 17:10:17 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.168] by tm17.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2013 17:10:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1024.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2013 17:10:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 308706.12798.bm@omp1024.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 80781 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Aug 2013 17:10:17 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=kR1Qhbkm+auRRiu8lufsyi235FMiQIY/KmT5eyqrNW1D/w2RqXW3L+SPp0VuNTt+d0v2Uko11fXfekXNMqEsy2pghM+arx/bUlia5mFSJG9cdz4BiS8lFxqwONuPlQdkZsmPeym2zsWfj0v0yYPV9H8wkKyJgIiMUttppcrAmmY=; X-YMail-OSG: A8eirxMVM1kBqysdStWgDbdIIOJ8fUzysNurQQyRsoG1sb5 S_1GUtWZq6OfYZ9UmckyPDjkSWHrC03UwQmkGZ_clPAosNBGCFf5bpDje5fW vuWC7u0OP3Hx.CQqC4cb7g5IPKhhRRaEFTNpx8TfUn6K.SzKqs6y8DxH9iQD wnO3Nyl6YyedNCIggK.51Ge7oC0AMUOSvkhoqUGq.1y8d69cyT9ZJdrU2y1Q fn_Dmo8ieo67kpNZ5M1prikSKhPeO583.J5rJ.G6jSE4mp5tSPkaZoZTtOUQ J_27iKt3yV8q7FmT2JL_qAiTSQrlbFPlRmkq3e2F5nHnq.ttnHpzbs4pY.PR AARmLo.nK8qRMQ0wRL.MKGiyAFQcQXeg06AI65vWDKI4mefJPlw0eWKV5xhY 6vH96OyTl5TY4XMjG8f0Gju.sQSZyc6dRMBqG9tYCID17Qw5AJlvWUpLXgcZ w3uItIkXA1ob.2FFxk1_RaDLNDzMzeZ4uRzX_Kl64j2DTRJ0whE_ZqlerMD3 XDnI_zLH.alc3ElKYLz0QPt__u4F4P.ckxeLvE6OFIDLZuL0.d_xiN8vQ1vP 1kiNVK8VjWtF34SWHftPzrUOyBQLAVQ-- Received: from [172.14.16.72] by web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Aug 2013 10:10:16 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SmltLApJIHdhcyBtb3JlIGNvbmNlcm5lZCBhYm91dCB0aGUgZmluYWwgbGFuZGluZyBjaGVja2xpc3Qgd2hpY2ggd291bGQgaGF2ZSBjYXVnaHQgdGhlIG1peHR1cmUuwqAgV29yc3Qgc2NlbmFyaW8gaXMgd2hlbiB0aGVyZSBpcyBlbm91Z2ggZnVlbCBmb3IgdGhlIGVuZ2luZSBhdCBsb3cgcG93ZXIvaWRsZSwgYnV0IG5vdCBmb3IgZnVsbCB0aHJvdHRsZS7CoCBpLmUuIFRvd2VyIHRlbGxzIHlvdSB0byBnbyBhcm91bmQuwqAgWW91IHRocm90dGxlIHVwIGFuZCB0aGF0IHByb21wdGx5IGtpbGxzIHRoZSBlbmcBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.154.571 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1376673016.66715.YahooMailNeo@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 10:10:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Flaps on take-off? X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1458340343-93440478-1376673016=:66715" --1458340343-93440478-1376673016=:66715 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim,=0AI was more concerned about the final landing checklist which would h= ave caught the mixture.=C2=A0 Worst scenario is when there is enough fuel f= or the engine at low power/idle, but not for full throttle.=C2=A0 i.e. Towe= r tells you to go around.=C2=A0 You throttle up and that promptly kills the= engine.=0AChris=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Jim Nor= din =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Friday,= August 16, 2013 7:49 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?=0A =0A=0A=0A = =0AHe has a check list but there wasn=E2=80=99t an =E2=80=9Cenrichen=E2=80= =9D=0Aon elevation letdown. Has one now. =0AMy plane also now has a similar= check. =0AJim =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFro= m:Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf=0AOf Chri= s Zavatson=0ASent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:00=0AAM=0ATo: lml@lancaironlin= e.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AJim, =0ANow= =0Athat is worrisome.=C2=A0 I suggest your friend write up a landing checkl= ist (GUMPF w/o the U at a minimum) such=0Athat he can fly with any given co= -pilot or none at all.=C2=A0 The plane should=0Ahave been configured for a = go-around.=C2=A0 -good thing you didn't need=0Aone.=C2=A0 =0AChris =0A=C2= =A0 =0AFrom:Jim Nordin =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.= net =0ASent: Thursday, August 15, 2013=0A6:39 PM=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on = take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AI know how an engine fails in the close pattern env= ironment. Decent=0Afrom altitude and forget to richen the engine. Happened = to a friend while I was in the plane (ES) as copilot. Why=0Adid it happen? = His wife normally is co-pilot and I didn=E2=80=99t prompt him with the verb= al clues he needed.=0AVery close to touch down it just quit. No problem as = we were only 100=C2=B1 feet=0Aabove the ground and nearly at the numbers. S= cary nonetheless =E2=80=93 mostly after=0Aeverything was on the ground and = rolling out safely. He didn=E2=80=99t waver from the task of landing - engi= ne or no. =0AJim =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List=0A[mailto:lml@la= ncaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lancair-ESP=0ASent: Thursday, August 15, 2013= =0A5:25 PM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] Flaps= on take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill, =0A=C2=A0 =0AWhat=0Ayou describe is c= ertainly a possible scenario =E2=80=93 actually that sounds like my=0Atypic= al arrival.=C2=A0 With the engine pulled back to 10-12=E2=80=9D and a windm= illing=0Aprop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feathered = prop. =C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0ABut=0Ahow likely is an engine that fails in the= close pattern after a cross-country=0Aflight?=C2=A0 More likely=0Asomethin= g would go afoul enroute,=0Awhen the pilot could select a landing spot and = arrive 2000 ft above it.=0A=C2=A0If not able to arrive 2000 ft agl =E2=80= =93 choose an alternate spot. =0A=C2=A0 =0AJust=0Amy couple lira . . . = =0A=C2=A0 =0ARobert =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@= bellsouth.net] =0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A2:06 PM=0ATo: lml@lanc= aironline.net=0ASubject: RE: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =0A=C2= =A0 =0ARobert, =0A=C2=A0 =0AYou should try it under=0Aconditions that ar= e more likely to be the case.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0ADescend to pattern=0Aal= titude, 1000 ft AGL, slow=0Ato pattern speed, and idle the engine abeam the= numbers and see if you can make=0Ait =0A=C2=A0 =0AI recommend you idle t= he=0Aengine and not kill it, because I would be surprised if you do make it= .=C2=A0 I=0Aalso don=E2=80=99t recommend you coarse pitch the prop since yo= u may need to add power=0Afor the go around. =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill =0AFrom:= Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lancair-ES= P=0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A11:18 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net= =0ASubject: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill, =0A= =C2=A0 =0AI=0Apracticed that maneuver with a Lancair company pilot flying = my ES-P and found=0Ait a non-event.=C2=A0 =0AOverhead=0Aupwind at 2000 ft= agl and=0Aslowing to pattern speed in the turn. =0ANo=0Aflaps until over = the fence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down the=0Arunway.=C2= =A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0AI=0Arealize the IV would take different speeds but it s= hould still be do-able with=0Aa little practice. =0A=C2=A0 =0ARobert =0A= ES-P=0AN301ES =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsou= th.net] =0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A9:26 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline= .net=0ASubject: RE: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AThat seems = a scenario=0Awhere you would be in better shape with the flaps up.=C2=A0 Yo= u very well might=0Amake the runway.=C2=A0 With flaps down, you likely woul= d not and it would be=0Avery dangerous to try and retract them.=C2=A0 With = the high wing loading that=0Aall the Lancairs have, they=0Aare flying brick= s with no power.=C2=A0 I think almost nobody makes the approach=0Ato land w= ith no power. =0ARemember way back in=0Aprimary training when the instruct= or had you remove power abeam the numbers and=0Amake the landing without ha= ving to add power?=C2=A0 Does anyone practice that=0Amaneuver with their La= ncair? =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill B =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mail= to:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Hannahan=0ASent: Tuesday, Augus= t 13, 2013=0A6:33 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on = take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AMatt, I=0Aagree with the others that w's insults = are inexcusable, but I must ask a question. =0A=C2=A0 =0AWhat do you=0A= do if your low over the departure end of the runway and the engine quits? = =0A=C2=A0 =0A1.=C2=A0 Land=0Aat high speed flaps up. =0A=C2=A0 =0A2.= =C2=A0=C2=A0=0ALower the flaps and deal with the big trim and pitch change = while making all=0Athe other decisions and actions required in parallel. = =0A=C2=A0 =0A3.=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A? =0A=C2=A0 =0ARegards, =0ABill Hanna= han =0A=0Awfhannahan@yahoo.com =0A=C2=A0 =0A-----=0AForwarded Message= -----=0AFrom:"marv@lancair.net" =0ATo: lml =0ASent= : Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02=0APM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-of= f? =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A=0A=0APosted for Matt losangeles :=0A=0A> I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground befor= e I lift off so=0AI =0A>don't have to mess with trim when I am low to the g= round. I could see a =0A>scenario where I take off IFR and I am immediately= handed off to departure =0A>control while I am putting the flaps up. They = tell me to do something the =0A>requires me to look at my map and the next = thing you know, while=0Adistracted, =0A>=C2=A0I am at an unusual attitude r= eally close to the ground. When I am=0Adown low =0A>like that I want to mak= e sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, the =0A>plane just keeps on c= limbing along at Vy or so.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> I also would guess if you use fla= ps on take off, this adds drag=C2=A0and=0Aslows =0A>your rate of climb (I h= ave not tested this).=C2=A0I am able to be at Vy a couple =0A>seconds after= take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before the =0A>guy usin= g flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not tested the two =0A>scenar= ios).=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it s= tates on the =0A>EAA,=C2=A0"There=0Ais=C2=A0=C2=A0no FAA approved flight ma= nual or POH for experimental =0A>aircraft, nor is there a=C2=A0=C2=A0TC".= =C2=A0 =0A> =C2=A0=0A> Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft tha= t=0Ahave just bonded thier =0A>flaps in place so they can't go down in orde= r to eliminate the drag of the =0A>hindges. I guess they=0Aare not flying t= hose aircraft the way they were meant =0A>to be flown. You could argue they= are reno racers I suppose. It is also =0A>likely they are using those plan= es the other 51 weeks out of the year to=0Afly =0A>all over the place and t= hose planes don't seem to be crashing on takeoff.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> "I believe= everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of=0Asafety"=0A> =C2=A0I p= ersonally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that=0Aflaps = =0A>do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them on landing so= I=0Acan =0A>see out the window and out of habit I suppose.=C2=A0If the spe= ed you land=0Aat makes =0A>such a difference, then the best thing to be doi= ng is flying a plane that =0A>lands at a slower speed.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Perha= ps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH makes =0A>sens= e. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a Mooney =0A>= board. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard the= =0A>same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly=C2=A0or you are completely= reckless =0A>and should have your license taken away. At least those Moone= y guys had a =0A>point. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said = to take off with =0A>flaps.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Something else to consider, if f= laps are so critical to flight on our =0A>planes, why on earth don't they h= ave a back up system to ensure they always =0A>go down when needed like our= landing gear has? My guess is because the=0Aplane =0A>will fly just fine w= ithout them.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Matt=0A> =0A> =0A> ____________________________= ____=0A> From: Art Jensen =0A> To: lml@lancaironline= .net =0A> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM=0A> Subject: [LML] Re: To M= arv=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness, = but the truth remains =0A>that if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it = was meant to be flown then =0A>you should not be flying that plane. =0A> = =0A> I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety an= d =0A>should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe= every =0A>instructor giving training in a Lancair would agree.=C2=A0=C2=A0= If an=0Ainstructor =0A>reading this disagrees, please share why you disagre= e with me.=0A> =0A> Art=0A> =0A> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad=C2=A0=C2=A0= =0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From:=C2=A0=C2=A0steve = ;=C2=A0=C2=A0To:=C2=A0=C2=A0;=C2=A0= =C2=A0Subject: =0A> [LML] Re: To Marv=C2=A0=C2=A0Sent:=C2=A0=C2=A0Mon, Aug = 12, 2013 5:39:28=0APM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> I second your post. I am = surprised by the comment. =0A> =0A> steve alderman=C2=A0=C2=A0 N25SA=C2=A0 = 360 =0A> =0A> . =0A> -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell =0A>To: lml Sent: Mon,=0AAug 12= , 2013 5:43 am Subject: =0A>[LML] To Marv=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> It is very regret= ful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Matt =0A>appeared on t= he LML.=C2=A0 This has always been a constructive exchange of =0A>informati= on and ideas.=C2=A0 That type of personal comment is not in=0Akeeping with = =0A>the spirit of cooperative sharing of information. =0A> =C2=A0 =0A> Clau= dette=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A-- =0A=C2=A0 =0AFor archives and unsub http://mail.l= ancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --1458340343-93440478-1376673016=:66715 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim,
I was more concerned about the final landing checklist which would h= ave caught the mixture.  Worst scenario is when there is enough fuel f= or the engine at low power/idle, but not for full throttle.  i.e. Towe= r tells you to go around.  You throttle up and that promptly kills the= engine.
Chris
<= div class=3D"hr" style=3D"margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid = rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" contented= itable=3D"false" readonly=3D"true">
= From: Jim Nordin <panelmaker@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:49 AM
Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?

= =0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
=0A=0A
He has a check list but there wasn= =E2=80=99t an =E2=80=9Cenrichen=E2=80=9D=0Aon elevation letdown. Has one no= w.
=0A=0A
My plane also now has a similar check.=0A=0A
J= im
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
= = =0A=0A
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
From: Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml= @lancaironline.net] On Behalf=0AOf Chris Zavatson
=0ASent: Friday, August 16, 2013 7:00=0AAM
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 = ;
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Jim,
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Now=0Athat is worrisome.  I suggest your friend write = up a landing checklist (GUMPF w/o the U at a minimum) such=0Athat= he can fly with any given co-pilot or none at all.  The plane should= =0Ahave been configured for a go-around.  -good thing you didn't need= =0Aone. 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Chris
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A<= div>=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
= From: = Jim = Nordin <panelmaker@earthlink.net>
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASent: Thursday, August 15, 2013= =0A6:39 PM
=0ASubject: = [LML] Flaps on take-off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
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=0A=0A
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I know how an engine fails in the close pattern environmen= t. Decent=0Afrom altitude and forget to richen=0Athe engine. Happ= ened to a friend while I was in the plane (ES) as copilot. Why=0Adid it hap= pen? His wife normally is co-pilot and I didn=E2=80=99t prompt hi= m with the verbal clues he needed.=0AVery close to touch down it just quit.= No problem as we were only 100=C2=B1 feet=0Aabove the ground and nearly at= the numbers. Scary nonetheless =E2=80=93 mostly after=0Aeverything was on = the ground and rolling out safely. He = didn=E2=80=99t waver from t= he task of landing - engine or no.
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
= Jim=
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=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A= =0A
From: Lancair Mailing List=0A[m= ailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behal= f Of Lancair-ESP
=0ASen= t: Thursday, August 15, 2013=0A5:25 PM
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] = Flaps on take-off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
= Bill,
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=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
What=0Ayou describe is certainly a= possible scenario =E2=80=93 actually that sounds like my=0Atypical arrival= .  With the engine pulled back to 10-12=E2=80=9D and a windmilling=0Ap= rop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feathered prop. &nbs= p;
=0A=0A
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=0A=0A
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
But=0Ahow likely is an engine that fa= ils in the close pattern after a cross-country=0Aflight?  More likely=0Aso= mething would go afoul enroute,=0Awhen the pilot could select a = landing spot and arrive 2000 ft above it.=0A If not able to arrive 200= 0 ft agl=0A=E2=80=93 choose an alternate spot.=0A=0A
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Just=0Amy couple lira . . .
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=0A=0A
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Robert
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 = ;
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=0A=0A
=0A=0A
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From: Bill Bradburry=0A[mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.= net]
=0ASent: Wednesda= y, August 14, 2013=0A2:06 PM
=0ATo= : lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASubject: RE: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on take-off?
=0A=0A
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=0A=0A<= div class=3D"yiv1492876587MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;">Robert,
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=0A=0A<= div>=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A=0A=0A
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You should try it under= =0Aconditions that are more likely to be the case.  =0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 =
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
De= scend to pattern=0Aaltitude, 1000 ft = AGL, slow=0Ato pattern spee= d, and idle the engine abeam the numbers and see if you can make=0Ait
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
&n= bsp;
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
I recommend you idle the=0Aengine and not kill it, because I would = be surprised if you do make it.  I=0Aalso don=E2=80=99t recommend you = coarse pitch the prop since you may need to add power=0Afor the go around.<= /span>
=0A=0A
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=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Bill
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From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lancair-ESP
= =0ASent: Wednesday, August= 14, 2013=0A11:18 AM
=0ATo:= lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] FW<= /span>: [LML] Flaps on take-off?
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Bill,<= /span>
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I=0Apracticed that mane= uver with a Lancair company pilot flying my ES-P and found=0Ait a non-event= . 
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Overhead=0Aupwind at 2000 ft agl = and=0Aslowing to pattern speed in the turn.
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No=0Aflap= s until over the fence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down the= =0Arunway. 
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I=0Are= alize the IV would take different speeds but it should still be do-able wit= h=0Aa little practice.
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= Robert
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ES-P=0AN301ES
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From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
=0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A9:26 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASubject: RE: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off?
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That seems a scenario=0Awhere you would be in bette= r shape with the flaps up.  You very well might=0Amake the runway.&nbs= p; With flaps down, you likely would not and it would be=0Avery dangerous t= o try and retract them.  With the high wing loading that=0Aall the Lancai= rs have, they=0Aare flying bricks with no power.  I thin= k almost nobody makes the approach=0Ato land with no power.=0A=0A
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Remember way= back in=0Aprimary training when the instructor had you remove power abeam = the numbers and=0Amake the landing without having to add power?  Does = anyone practice that=0Amaneuver with their Lancair?
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= Bill B
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From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Hannahan=
=0ASent: Tuesday, Augu= st 13, 2013=0A6:33 AM
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps = on take-off?
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Matt, I=0Aagree wit= h the others that w's=0Ainsults are inexcusable, but I must ask = a question.
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What do you=0Ado if = your low over the departure end of the runway and the engine quits?<= /font>
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1.  Land=0Aat high speed flaps = up.
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= 2.  =0ALower the f= laps and deal with the big trim and pitch change while making all=0Athe oth= er decisions and actions required in parallel.
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3.  =0A?
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Regards,
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Bill Hannahan
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=0Awfhannahan@yahoo.com
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-----=0AForwarded Message -----
= =0AFrom:= "marv@lancair.net" <marv@lancair.net>
=0ATo: lml <lml>
=0ASent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02=0APM
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off?<= /span>
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losangeles <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>= ;:
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=0A> I feel much safer adding 5 knots or so on the ground b= efore I lift off so=0AI
=0A>don't have to mess with trim when I am l= ow to the ground. I could see a
=0A>scenario where I take off IFR=0Aand I am immediately handed off to departure
=0A>control = while I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the
=0A&g= t;requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while=0Adistra= cted,
=0A> I am at an unusual attitude really close to the grou= nd. When I am=0Adown low
=0A>like that I want to make sure if I am d= istracted it isn't a problem, the
=0A>plane just keeps on climbing a= long at Vy or so.
=0A>  
=0A> I also would gues= s if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag and=0Aslows
=0A>= your rate of climb (I have not tested this). I am able to be at Vy= a couple
=0A>seconds after take off and I am going to get to= a safer altitude before the=0A
=0A>guy using flaps (again, this is m= y guess since I have not tested the two
=0A>scenarios).
=0A> &= nbsp;
=0A> Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it state= s on the
=0A>EAA, "There=0Ais  no FAA appr= oved flight manual or POH for experimental
=0A>aircraft, = nor is there a  TC". 
=0A>  
=0A> Ohh<= /span>, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that=0Ahave= just bonded thier
=0A>flaps in place so they can't go do= wn in order to eliminate the drag of the
=0A>hindges. I g= uess they=0Aare not flying those aircraft the way they were meant
=0A&g= t;to be flown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. I= t is also
=0A>likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks = out of the year to=0Afly
=0A>all over the place and those planes don= 't seem to be crashing on takeoff.
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=0A> "I believe = everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of=0Asafety"
=0A> &nb= sp;I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree that=0Af= laps
=0A>do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use them o= n landing so I=0Acan
=0A>see out the window and out of habit I suppo= se. If the speed you land=0Aat makes
=0A>such a difference, the= n the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that
=0A>lands at a s= lower speed.
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=0A> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour p= ilots, blindly following the POH makes
=0A>sense. It is f= unny, I remember having this EXACT same argument on a Mooney
=0A>boa= rd. I used to take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard the=0A=
=0A>same thing there. Follow the POH=0Aexplicitly or= you are completely reckless
=0A>and should have your license taken = away. At least those Mooney guys had a
=0A>point. That was a certifi= ed aircraft with a POH that said to take off with
=0A>fla= ps.
=0A>  
=0A> Something else to consider, if flaps are s= o critical to flight on our
=0A>planes, why on earth don't they have= a back up system to ensure they always=0A
=0A>go down when needed li= ke our landing gear has? My guess is because the=0Aplane
=0A>will fl= y just fine without them.
=0A>  
=0A> Matt
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= =0A>
=0A> ________________________________
=0A> From: Art J= ensen <flycassutts@yahoo.com>
=0A> To: lml@lancair= online.net
=0A> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM
=0A>= Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv
=0A>  
=0A> Maybe Wolfgan= g was short on political correctness, but the truth remains
=0A>that= if you cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown then=0A<= br>=0A>you should not be flying that plane.
=0A>
=0A> I be= lieve everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and
=0A= >should be used for take-off and landing as per your POH and = I believe every
=0A>instructor giving training in a Lancair would ag= ree.  If an=0Ainstructor
=0A>reading this disagrees, pleas= e share why you disagree with me.
=0A>
=0A> Art
=0A> =0A> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
=0A> <= br>=0A>
=0A> ________________________________
=0A> From:&nb= sp; steve=0A<n5276j@aol.com<= /a>>;  To:  <lml@lancaironline.net>;  Subject:=0A
=0A> [LML= ] Re: To Marv  Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28=0APM&nb= sp;   
=0A> I second your post. I am surprised by the = comment.
=0A>
=0A> steve=0Aalderman   N2= 5SA  360
=0A>
=0A> .
=0A> -----Original Message--= --- From: Claudette Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com>=0A
=0A>To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net> Sent: Mon,=0AAug= 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:
=0A>[LML] To Marv  
=0A> = It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Matt= =0A
=0A>appeared on the LML.  This has always been a constructiv= e exchange of
=0A>information and ideas.  That type of personal= comment is not in=0Akeeping with
=0A>the spirit of cooperative shar= ing of information.
=0A>  
=0A> Claudette  
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For archives and = unsub=0Ahttp://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
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