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From: Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?
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Bill,=0AThat brings up a interesting topic:=C2=A0 Carb Heat.=C2=A0 =0ALong =
ago when rigging up carb heat on my 360, I measured the temperature rise of=
fered up by our=C2=A0tiny 320/360=C2=A0heat muffs.=C2=A0 Lycoming wanted to=
 see a 75 degrees rise.=C2=A0 I was measuring nowhere close to that.=C2=A0 =
I re-plumbed to pull carb heat air from under the engine so that I could ut=
ilize engine heat plus the heat muff.=C2=A0 Now I had something useful.=0AA=
t the same time I tried to find NTSB reports with carb icing as a cause.=C2=
=A0 I came up empty for Lycomings.=C2=A0 It appeared they were more immune.=
=C2=A0 The carb is bolted to a very large heat source - the oil sump.=C2=A0=
 So once the oil is warm it seemed to offer up some protection.=C2=A0 =0ALy=
coming is most concerned about carb ice at part power operation.=C2=A0 I ha=
ve a TC in my carb and monitored temperatures during part power.=C2=A0 They=
 actually went up.=C2=A0 -makes sense.=C2=A0 Less air to counter the heat c=
oming in from the sump.=0AOperationally I do not operate at part power in h=
umid conditions until after the oil has reached normal operating temperatur=
es.=C2=A0 In other words, if I am going out to practice instruments approac=
hes in our local fog, I spend a few minutes=C2=A0burning avgas=C2=A0at high=
 power first.=0AI am curious if anyone on the list has experienced carb ice=
 in a Lycoming and what the circumstances were surrounding the event.=C2=A0=
 I have never actually needed carb heat but I feel better knowing it is the=
re.=0A=C2=A0=0AChris Zavatson=0AN91CZ=0A360std=0Ahttp://www.n91cz.net/=0A =
=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@=
bellsouth.net>=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Friday, August 16, 2013=
 5:00 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on take-off?=0A  =0A=0A=0A =0AMy next d=
oor hangar mate was practicing=0AILS approaches at night and forgot to put =
on carb heat.=C2=A0 He wound up in an=0Aorange grove.=C2=A0 Destroyed his R=
V-6 but no one injured. =0A=C2=A0 =0AB2 =0A=0A_____________________________=
___=0A  =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Beha=
lf Of Jim Nordin=0ASent: Thursday, August 15, 2013=0A9:39 PM=0ATo: lml@lanc=
aironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?  =0A=C2=A0 =0AI know how =
an engine fails in the close=0Apattern environment. Decent from altitude an=
d forget to richen the engine.=0AHappened to a friend while I was in the pl=
ane (ES) as copilot. Why did it=0Ahappen? His wife normally is co-pilot and=
 I didn=E2=80=99t prompt him with the=0Averbal clues he needed. Very close =
to touch down it just quit. No problem as we=0Awere only 100=C2=B1 feet abo=
ve the ground and nearly at the numbers. Scary=0Anonetheless =E2=80=93 most=
ly after everything was on the ground and rolling out=0Asafely. He didn=E2=
=80=99t waver from the task of landing - engine or no. =0AJim =0A=C2=A0 =0A=
=0A________________________________=0A  =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailt=
o:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lancair-ESP=0ASent: Thursday, August =
15, 2013=0A5:25 PM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: FW: [LM=
L] Flaps=0Aon take-off?  =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill, =0A=C2=A0 =0AWhat you describe =
is=0Acertainly a possible scenario =E2=80=93 actually that sounds like my t=
ypical=0Aarrival.=C2=A0 With the engine pulled back to 10-12=E2=80=9D and a=
 windmilling=0Aprop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feat=
hered prop. =C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0ABut how likely is an engine that fails in=
=0Athe close pattern after a cross-country flight?=C2=A0 More likely someth=
ing would go afoul enroute, when the=0Apilot could select a landing spot an=
d arrive 2000 ft above it. =C2=A0If not=0Aable to arrive 2000 ft agl =E2=80=
=93 choose an alternate spot. =0A=C2=A0 =0AJust my couple lira=0A. . .  =0A=
=C2=A0 =0ARobert =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Bill Bradburry=0A[mailto:bbradburry@bell=
south.net] =0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A2:06 PM=0ATo: lml@lancairo=
nline.net=0ASubject: RE: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps=0Aon take-off?   =0A=C2=A0 =
=0ARobert, =0A=C2=A0 =0AYou should try it under conditions that are=0Amore =
likely to be the case.=C2=A0  =0A=C2=A0 =0ADescend to pattern altitude, 100=
0 ft AGL,=0Aslow to pattern speed, and idle the engine abeam the numbers an=
d see if you can=0Amake it =0A=C2=A0 =0AI recommend you idle the engine and=
 not=0Akill it, because I would be surprised if you do make it.=C2=A0 I als=
o=0Adon=E2=80=99t recommend you coarse pitch the prop since you may need to=
 add power=0Afor the go around. =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill  =0A=0A__________________=
______________=0A  =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.n=
et] On Behalf Of Lancair-ESP=0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A11:18 AM=
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off=
?  =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill, =0A=C2=A0 =0AI practiced that=0Amaneuver with a Lanca=
ir company pilot flying my ES-P and found it a non-event.=C2=A0  =0AOverhea=
d upwind at=0A2000 ft agl and slowing to pattern speed in the turn. =0ANo f=
laps until over=0Athe fence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down=
 the runway.=C2=A0  =0A=C2=A0 =0AI realize the IV=0Awould take different sp=
eeds but it should still be do-able with a little=0Apractice. =0A=C2=A0 =0A=
Robert =0AES-P N301ES =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@b=
ellsouth.net] =0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A9:26 AM=0ATo: lml@lancair=
online.net=0ASubject: RE: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off?   =0A=C2=A0 =0AThat se=
ems a scenario where you would be=0Ain better shape with the flaps up.=C2=
=A0 You very well might make the=0Arunway.=C2=A0 With flaps down, you likel=
y would not and it would be very=0Adangerous to try and retract them.=C2=A0=
 With the high wing loading that all=0Athe Lancairs have, they are flying b=
ricks with no power.=C2=A0 I think almost=0Anobody makes the approach to la=
nd with no power. =0ARemember way back in primary training when=0Athe instr=
uctor had you remove power abeam the numbers and make the landing=0Awithout=
 having to add power?=C2=A0 Does anyone practice that maneuver with=0Atheir=
 Lancair? =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill B =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A_____________________________=
___=0A  =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Beha=
lf Of Bill Hannahan=0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A6:33 AM=0ATo: lml@la=
ncaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?  =0A=C2=A0 =0AMatt, I=
=0Aagree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a=
=0Aquestion.  =0A=C2=A0  =0AWhat do you do if your low over the=0Adeparture=
 end of the runway and the engine quits?  =0A=C2=A0  =0A1.=C2=A0 Land at hi=
gh speed flaps up.  =0A=C2=A0  =0A2.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lower the flaps and deal=
=0Awith the big trim and pitch change while making all the other decisions =
and=0Aactions required in parallel.  =0A=C2=A0  =0A3.=C2=A0=C2=A0 ?  =0A=C2=
=A0  =0ARegards,  =0ABill=0AHannahan  =0A=0Awfhannahan@yahoo.com  =0A=C2=A0=
  =0A-----=0AForwarded Message -----=0AFrom:"marv@lancair.net"=0A<marv@lanc=
air.net>=0ATo: lml <lml> =0ASent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02=0APM=0ASubje=
ct: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off?  =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A=0A=0APosted for Matt l=
osangeles <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>:=0A=0A> I feel much safer adding 5 k=
nots or so on the ground before I lift off so=0AI =0A>don't have to mess wi=
th trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a =0A>scenario where I tak=
e off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departure =0A>control while I =
am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the =0A>requires me t=
o look at my map and the next thing you know, while=0Adistracted, =0A>=C2=
=A0I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am=0Adown=
 low =0A>like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a proble=
m, the =0A>plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> I=
 also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag=C2=A0and=0As=
lows =0A>your rate of climb (I have not tested this).=C2=A0I am able to be =
at Vy a=0Acouple =0A>seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safe=
r altitude before the =0A>guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I =
have not tested the two =0A>scenarios).=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Another thing. It is=
 an experimental aircraft. As it states on the =0A>EAA,=C2=A0"There is=C2=
=A0=C2=A0no FAA approved flight manual or POH=0Afor experimental =0A>aircra=
ft, nor is there a=C2=A0=C2=A0TC".=C2=A0 =0A> =C2=A0=0A> Ohh, what about th=
ose reno =0Aracer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded thier =0A>flaps in =
place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of the =0A>hindg=
es. I guess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were meant =0A>=
to be flown. You could argue they are reno =0Aracers I suppose. It is also =
=0A>likely they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year t=
o=0Afly =0A>all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing o=
n takeoff.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add=
 a margin of=0Asafety"=0A> =C2=A0I personally consider myself part of every=
one and I don't agree that=0Aflaps =0A>do in fact add a margin of safety on=
 take off. I use them on landing so I=0Acan =0A>see out the window and out =
of habit I suppose.=C2=A0If the speed you land=0Aat makes =0A>such a differ=
ence, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that =0A>lands at a=
 slower speed.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blind=
ly following the POH makes =0A>sense. It is funny, I remember having this E=
XACT same argument on a Mooney =0A>board. I used to take off without flaps =
when I had a Mooney and I heard the =0A>same thing there. Follow the POH ex=
plicitly=C2=A0or you are completely=0Areckless =0A>and should have your lic=
ense taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a =0A>point. That was a cer=
tified aircraft with a POH that said to take off with =0A>flaps.=0A> =C2=A0=
=0A> Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our =
=0A>planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they al=
ways =0A>go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because=
 the=0Aplane =0A>will fly just fine without them.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Matt=0A> =
=0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Art Jensen <flycassutt=
s@yahoo.com>=0A> To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A> Sent: Monday, August 12, 20=
13 1:46 PM=0A> Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> Maybe Wolfgan=
g was short on political correctness, but the truth remains =0A>that if you=
 cannot or do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown then =0A>you sh=
ould not be flying that plane. =0A> =0A> I believe everyone would agree tha=
t flaps do add a margin of safety and =0A>should be used for take-off and l=
anding as per your POH and I believe every =0A>instructor giving training i=
n a Lancair would agree.=C2=A0=C2=A0If an=0Ainstructor =0A>reading this dis=
agrees, please share why you disagree with me.=0A> =0A> Art=0A> =0A> Sent f=
rom Yahoo! Mail for iPad=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________=
________=0A> From:=C2=A0=C2=A0steve <n5276j@aol.com>;=C2=A0=C2=A0To:=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<lml@lancaironline.net>;=C2=A0=C2=A0Subject: =0A> [LML] Re: To Marv=
=C2=A0=C2=A0Sent:=C2=A0=C2=A0Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28=0APM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=0A> I second your post. I am surprised by the comment. =0A> =0A> =
steve alderman=C2=A0=C2=A0 N25SA=C2=A0 360 =0A> =0A> . =0A> -----Original M=
essage----- From: Claudette Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com> =0A>To: lml <lml=
@lancaironline.net>=0ASent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject: =0A>[LML] To=
 Marv=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang appare=
ntly directed to Matt =0A>appeared on the LML.=C2=A0 This has always been a=
 constructive exchange of =0A>information and ideas.=C2=A0 That type of per=
sonal comment is not in=0Akeeping with =0A>the spirit of cooperative sharin=
g of information. =0A> =C2=A0 =0A> Claudette=C2=A0=C2=A0  =0A--=0A=C2=A0=0A=
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=
 
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Bill,</span></div><di=
v><span>That brings up a interesting topic:&nbsp; <span class=3D"mark" id=
=3D"misspell-0">Carb</span> Heat.&nbsp; </span></div><div><span>Long ago wh=
en rigging up <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-1">carb</span> heat on my=
 360, I measured the temperature rise offered up by our&nbsp;tiny 320/360&n=
bsp;heat muffs.&nbsp; <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-2">Lycoming</span=
> wanted to see a 75 degrees rise.&nbsp; I was measuring nowhere close to t=
hat.&nbsp; I re-plumbed to pull <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-3">carb=
</span> heat air from under the engine so that I could utilize engine heat =
plus the heat muff.&nbsp; Now I had something useful.</span></div><div><spa=
n>At the same time I tried to find <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-4">N=
TSB</span> reports with <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-5">carb</span> =
icing as a
 cause.&nbsp; I came up empty for <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-6">Ly=
comings</span>.&nbsp; It appeared they were more immune.&nbsp; The <span cl=
ass=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-7">carb</span> is bolted to a very large heat s=
ource - the oil sump.&nbsp; So once the oil is warm it seemed to offer up s=
ome protection.&nbsp; </span></div><div><span><span class=3D"mark" id=3D"mi=
sspell-8">Lycoming</span> is most concerned about <span class=3D"mark" id=
=3D"misspell-9">carb</span> ice at part power operation.&nbsp; I have a TC =
in my <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-10">carb</span> and monitored tem=
peratures during part power.&nbsp; They actually went up.&nbsp; -makes sens=
e.&nbsp; Less air to counter the heat coming in from the sump.</span></div>=
<div><span>Operationally I do not operate at part power in humid conditions=
 until after the oil has reached normal operating temperatures.&nbsp; In ot=
her words, if I am going out to practice instruments approaches in our loca=
l fog, I spend
 a few minutes&nbsp;burning <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-11">avgas</=
span>&nbsp;at high power first.</span></div><div><span>I am curious if anyo=
ne on the list has experienced <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-12">carb=
</span> ice in a <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-13">Lycoming</span> an=
d what the circumstances were surrounding the event.&nbsp; I have never act=
ually needed <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-14">carb</span> heat but I=
 feel better knowing it is there.</span></div><div><span></span>&nbsp;</div=
><div><span>Chris Zavatson</span></div><div><span>N91CZ</span></div><div><s=
pan>360std</span></div><div><span><a href=3D"http://www.n91cz.net/">http://=
www.n91cz.net/</a></span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: =
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family:=
 times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"lt=
r"> <div class=3D"hr" style=3D"margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204,
 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" contenteditable=3D"fal=
se" readonly=3D"true"></div>  <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span sty=
le=3D"font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Bill <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"=
misspell-16">Bradburry</span> &lt;bbradburry@bellsouth.net&gt;<br> <b><span=
 style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lml@lancaironline.net <br> <b>=
<span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 16, 2013=
 5:00 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [LML=
] Re: Flaps on take-off?<br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container">=
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yiv3972751426emailstyle27=0A=09{font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D;}=0A#yiv3=
972751426 span.yiv3972751426emailstyle28=0A=09{font-family:"Comic Sans MS";=
color:windowtext;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none =
none;}=0A#yiv3972751426 span.yiv3972751426EmailStyle29=0A=09{font-family:Ar=
ial;color:navy;}=0A _filtered #yiv3972751426 {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.2=
5in;}=0A#yiv3972751426 div.yiv3972751426Section1=0A=09{}=0A-->=0A</style>=
=0A=0A=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426Section1">=0A=0A<div clas=
s=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"=
><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">My next =
door hangar mate was practicing=0A<span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-18">I=
LS</span> approaches at night and forgot to put on <span class=3D"mark" id=
=3D"misspell-19">carb</span> heat.&nbsp; He wound up in an=0Aorange grove.&=
nbsp; Destroyed his RV-6 but no one injured.</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div=
 class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> &=
nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font=
 color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-=
family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">B2</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<d=
iv align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: c=
enter;"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 12pt;">=0A=0A<div class=3D"hr" style=3D"margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; bor=
der: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: =
0px;" contenteditable=3D"false" readonly=3D"true"></div>=0A=0A</span></font=
></div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma"=
 size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weigh=
t: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">=0A Lancair Mailing List [mail=
to:lml@lancaironline.net] <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">On Behalf O=
f </span></b>Jim <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-21">Nordin</span><br>=
=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August =
15, 2013=0A9:39 PM<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></=
b> lml@lancaironline.net<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subjec=
t:</span></b> [LML] Flaps on take-off?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=
=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" siz=
e=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A=
<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D"=
4"><span style=3D'font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; font-size: 14pt;'>I know ho=
w an engine fails in the close=0Apattern environment. Decent from altitude =
and forget to <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-23">richen</span> the eng=
ine.=0AHappened to a friend while I was in the plane (ES) as copilot. Why d=
id it=0Ahappen? His wife normally is co-pilot and I <span class=3D"mark" id=
=3D"misspell-24">didn</span>=E2=80=99t prompt him with the=0Averbal clues h=
e needed. Very close to touch down it just quit. No problem as we=0Awere on=
ly 100=C2=B1 feet above the ground and nearly at the numbers. Scary=0Anonet=
heless =E2=80=93 mostly after everything was on the ground and rolling out=
=0Asafely. He <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-25">didn</span>=E2=80=99t=
 waver from the task of landing - engine or no.</span></font></div> =0A=0A<=
div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D"4=
"><span style=3D'font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; font-size: 14pt;'>Jim</span>=
</font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Com=
ic Sans MS" size=3D"4"><span style=3D'font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; font-si=
ze: 14pt;'>&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div align=3D"center=
" class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;"><font face=
=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">=0A=0A<div=
 class=3D"hr" style=3D"margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" contentedita=
ble=3D"false" readonly=3D"true"></div>=0A=0A</span></font></div>=0A=0A<div =
class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">From:</s=
pan></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">=0A Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironli=
ne.net] <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Lanca=
ir-ESP<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursda=
y, August 15, 2013=0A5:25 PM<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To=
:</span></b> lml@lancaironline.net<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bol=
d;">Subject:</span></b> [LML] Re: <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-29">F=
W</span>: [LML] Flaps=0Aon take-off?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A=
<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<d=
iv class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; =
font-size: 11pt;">Bill,</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv39727514=
26MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span styl=
e=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp=
;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font col=
or=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73=
, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">What you describe is=0Acert=
ainly a possible scenario =E2=80=93 actually that sounds like my typical=0A=
arrival.&nbsp; With the engine pulled back to 10-12=E2=80=9D and a windmill=
ing=0Aprop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feathered pro=
p. &nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><=
font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font=
></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"red" fac=
e=3D"Calibri" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: red; font-family: Calibri; f=
ont-size: 20pt;">But how likely is an engine that fails in=0Athe close patt=
ern after a cross-country flight?</span></font><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=
=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family=
: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp; More likely something would go afoul <s=
pan class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-31">enroute</span>, when the=0Apilot coul=
d select a landing spot and arrive 2000 ft above it. &nbsp;If not=0Aable to=
 arrive 2000 ft <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-32">agl</span> =E2=80=
=93 choose an alternate spot.</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv39=
72751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"=
>&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><fo=
nt color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(=
31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Just my couple lira=
=0A. . . </span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><=
font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font=
></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d"=
 face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-f=
amily: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Robert</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div cla=
ss=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-s=
ize: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div style=3D"borde=
r-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rg=
b(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">=0A=0A<d=
iv class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">From:=
</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> Bill <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-33"=
>Bradburry</span>=0A[mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net] <br>=0A<b><span style=
=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A2:06 =
PM<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lml@lancairon=
line.net<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE=
: [LML] <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-35">FW</span>: [LML] Flaps=0Aon=
 take-off?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"=
yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3=
972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span st=
yle=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Robert,</span></f=
ont></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; =
font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751=
426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D=
"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">You should try it under=
 conditions that are=0Amore likely to be the case.&nbsp; </span></font></di=
v> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D=
"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-siz=
e: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNo=
rmal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: =
navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Descend to pattern altitude, 10=
00 ft <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-37">AGL</span>,=0Aslow to pattern=
 speed, and idle the engine abeam the numbers and see if you can=0Amake it<=
/span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=
=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family=
: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"y=
iv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span=
 style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">I recommend yo=
u idle the engine and not=0Akill it, because I would be surprised if you do=
 make it.&nbsp; I also=0Adon=E2=80=99t recommend you coarse pitch the prop =
since you may need to add power=0Afor the go around.</span></font></div> =
=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Ar=
ial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: =
10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNorma=
l"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: nav=
y; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Bill </span></font></div> =0A=0A<d=
iv>=0A=0A<div align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"te=
xt-align: center;"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 12pt;">=0A=0A<div class=3D"hr" style=3D"margin: 5px 0px; paddin=
g: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; =
font-size: 0px;" contenteditable=3D"false" readonly=3D"true"></div>=0A=0A</=
span></font></div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><b><font face=
=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;=
 font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;">=0A Lancair Mailing=
 List [<a href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
follow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net">mailto:lml@lancaironline.n=
et</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Lanca=
ir-ESP<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesd=
ay, August 14, 2013=0A11:18 AM<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.=
net</a><br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [LM=
L] <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-41">FW</span>: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake=
-off?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoN=
ormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNorma=
l"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Bill,</span></f=
ont></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f49=
7d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); fon=
t-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div =
class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" s=
ize=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; fon=
t-size: 11pt;">I practiced that=0Amaneuver with a Lancair company pilot fly=
ing my ES-P and found it a non-event.&nbsp;=0A</span></font></div> =0A=0A<d=
iv class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; =
font-size: 11pt;">Overhead upwind at=0A2000 ft <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"m=
isspell-44">agl</span> and slowing to pattern speed in the turn.</span></fo=
nt></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497=
d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font=
-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">No flaps until over=0Athe fence then de=
ployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down the runway.&nbsp; </span></font></=
div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" fa=
ce=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-fami=
ly: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=
=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-s=
ize: 11pt;">I realize the IV=0Awould take different speeds but it should st=
ill be do-able with a little=0Apractice.</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div cla=
ss=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-s=
ize: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426Mso=
Normal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"=
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">Robert</sp=
an></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D=
"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125=
); font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;">ES-P N301ES</span></font></div> =
=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D=
"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: C=
alibri; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div =
style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; bo=
rder-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) currentColor currentColor; padding: 3pt 0in =
0in;">=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" =
size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight=
: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> Bill <span class=3D"mark" id=
=3D"misspell-45">Bradburry</span> [<a href=3D"mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.n=
et" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:bbradburry@bellsou=
th.net">mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net</a>] <br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-=
weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A9:26 AM<br>=0A<b=
><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:lml@la=
ncaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml@l=
ancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net</a><br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-we=
ight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off?</span></fon=
t></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal=
"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;=
">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><f=
ont color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; fo=
nt-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">That seems a scenario where you would b=
e=0Ain better shape with the flaps up.&nbsp; You very well might make the=
=0Arunway.&nbsp; With flaps down, you likely would not and it would be very=
=0Adangerous to try and retract them.&nbsp; With the high wing loading that=
 all=0Athe <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-47">Lancairs</span> have, th=
ey are flying bricks with no power.&nbsp; I think almost=0Anobody makes the=
 approach to land with no power.</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yi=
v3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span =
style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Remember way ba=
ck in primary training when=0Athe instructor had you remove power abeam the=
 numbers and make the landing=0Awithout having to add power?&nbsp; Does any=
one practice that maneuver with=0Atheir Lancair?</span></font></div> =0A=0A=
<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" s=
ize=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"=
>&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><fo=
nt color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: navy; fon=
t-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">Bill B</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div cl=
ass=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"=
2"><span style=3D"color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;=
</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div align=3D"center" class=3D"yiv397=
2751426MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align: center;"><font face=3D"Times New Rom=
an" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">=0A=0A<div class=3D"hr" sty=
le=3D"margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); =
height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" contenteditable=3D"false" rea=
donly=3D"true"></div>=0A=0A</span></font></div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv39727=
51426MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><f=
ont face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-siz=
e: 10pt;">=0A Lancair Mailing List [<a href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.ne=
t">mailto:lml@lancaironline.net</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
On Behalf Of </span></b>Bill <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-50">Hannah=
an</span><br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tues=
day, August 13, 2013=0A6:33 AM<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">=
To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" r=
el=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.=
net</a><br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [LM=
L] Flaps on take-off?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"y=
iv3972751426MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=
=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><font=
 color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; fon=
t-family: Arial; font-size: 18pt;">Matt, I=0Aagree with the others that <sp=
an class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-52">w's</span> insults are inexcusable, bu=
t I must ask a=0Aquestion.</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=
=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Time=
s New Roman" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-size: 18pt;">&nbs=
p;</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv397275=
1426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"5"><s=
pan style=3D"color: black; font-size: 18pt;">What do you do if your low ove=
r the=0Adeparture end of the runway and the engine quits?</span></font></di=
v> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font=
 color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: =
black; font-size: 18pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=
=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"T=
imes New Roman" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-size: 18pt;">1=
.&nbsp; Land at high speed flaps up.</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A=
<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=
=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-size: 18p=
t;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"y=
iv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-size: 18pt;">2.&nbsp;&nbsp; Lower =
the flaps and deal=0Awith the big trim and pitch change while making all th=
e other decisions and=0Aactions required in parallel.</span></font></div> =
=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font co=
lor=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: bla=
ck; font-size: 18pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=
=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Time=
s New Roman" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-size: 18pt;">3.&n=
bsp;&nbsp; ?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D=
"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><font color=3D"black"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial;=
 font-size: 18pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A=
<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><font co=
lor=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: black; font-f=
amily: Arial; font-size: 18pt;">Regards,</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=
=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background:=
 white;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"col=
or: black; font-family: Arial; font-size: 18pt;">Bill=0A<span class=3D"mark=
" id=3D"misspell-53">Hannahan</span></span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A=
<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white=
;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color: bl=
ack; font-family: Arial; font-size: 18pt;"><br>=0A<a href=3D"mailto:wfhanna=
han@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:wfhanna=
han@yahoo.com">wfhannahan@yahoo.com</a></span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=
=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: wh=
ite;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"5"><span style=3D"color:=
 black; font-family: Arial; font-size: 18pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =
=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751=
426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Ti=
mes New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"color: black; font-size: 12pt;">--=
---=0AForwarded Message -----<br>=0A</span></font><b><font color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial; =
font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font color=3D"=
black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: black; font-family: =
Arial; font-size: 10pt;"> "<a href=3D"mailto:marv@lancair.net" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:marv@lancair.net">marv@lancair.net=
</a>"=0A&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marv@lancair.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
follow" ymailto=3D"mailto:marv@lancair.net">marv@lancair.net</a>&gt;<br>=0A=
<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lml &lt;lml&gt; <br>=
=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 12=
, 2013 4:02=0APM<br>=0A<b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span=
></b> [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off?</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A=
<div>=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white=
;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D=
"color: black; font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A<div id=
=3D"yiv3972751426">=0A=0A<div id=3D"yiv3972751426_htmlarea_default_style_">=
=0A=0A<div class=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white; mar=
gin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span st=
yle=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial; font-size: 10pt;"><br>=0A<br>=0A<b=
r>=0APosted for Matt <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-57">losangeles</sp=
an> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com">mattinlosangele=
s@yahoo.com</a>&gt;:<br>=0A<br>=0A&gt; I feel much safer adding 5 knots or =
so on the ground before I lift off so=0AI <br>=0A&gt;don't have to mess wit=
h trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a <br>=0A&gt;scenario where=
 I take off <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-58">IFR</span> and I am imm=
ediately handed off to departure <br>=0A&gt;control while I am putting the =
flaps up. They tell me to do something the <br>=0A&gt;requires me to look a=
t my map and the next thing you know, while=0Adistracted, <br>=0A&gt;&nbsp;=
I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am=0Adown lo=
w <br>=0A&gt;like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a pr=
oblem, the <br>=0A&gt;plane just keeps on climbing along at <span class=3D"=
mark" id=3D"misspell-59">Vy</span> or so.<br>=0A&gt; &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; I al=
so would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag&nbsp;and=0Aslow=
s <br>=0A&gt;your rate of climb (I have not tested this).&nbsp;I am able to=
 be at <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-60">Vy</span> a=0Acouple <br>=0A=
&gt;seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer altitude before=
 the=0A<br>=0A&gt;guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have not=
 tested the two <br>=0A&gt;scenarios).<br>=0A&gt; &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; Another=
 thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states on the <br>=0A&gt;<spa=
n class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-61">EAA</span>,&nbsp;"There is&nbsp;&nbsp;n=
o FAA approved flight manual or <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-62">POH=
</span>=0Afor experimental <br>=0A&gt;aircraft, nor is there a&nbsp;&nbsp;T=
C".&nbsp; <br>=0A&gt; &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell=
-63">Ohh</span>, what about those <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-64">r=
eno</span> =0Aracer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded <span class=3D"ma=
rk" id=3D"misspell-65">thier</span> <br>=0A&gt;flaps in place so they can't=
 go down in order to eliminate the drag of the <br>=0A&gt;<span class=3D"ma=
rk" id=3D"misspell-66">hindges</span>. I guess they are not flying those ai=
rcraft the way they were meant=0A<br>=0A&gt;to be flown. You could argue th=
ey are <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-67">reno</span> =0Aracers I supp=
ose. It is also <br>=0A&gt;likely they are using those planes the other 51 =
weeks out of the year to=0Afly <br>=0A&gt;all over the place and those plan=
es don't seem to be crashing on takeoff.<br>=0A&gt; &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; "I be=
lieve everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of=0Asafety"<br>=0A&g=
t; &nbsp;I personally consider myself part of everyone and I don't agree th=
at=0Aflaps <br>=0A&gt;do in fact add a margin of safety on take off. I use =
them on landing so I=0Acan <br>=0A&gt;see out the window and out of habit I=
 suppose.&nbsp;If the speed you land=0Aat makes <br>=0A&gt;such a differenc=
e, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that <br>=0A&gt;lands =
at a slower speed.<br>=0A&gt; &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; Perhaps if we were all 100 =
hour pilots, blindly following the <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-68">=
POH</span> makes <br>=0A&gt;sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXAC=
T same argument on a Mooney <br>=0A&gt;board. I used to take off without fl=
aps when I had a Mooney and I heard the=0A<br>=0A&gt;same thing there. Foll=
ow the <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-69">POH</span> explicitly&nbsp;o=
r you are completely=0Areckless <br>=0A&gt;and should have your license tak=
en away. At least those Mooney guys had a <br>=0A&gt;point. That was a cert=
ified aircraft with a <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-70">POH</span> th=
at said to take off with <br>=0A&gt;flaps.<br>=0A&gt; &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; Som=
ething else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our <br>=0A&=
gt;planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they alw=
ays=0A<br>=0A&gt;go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is=
 because the=0Aplane <br>=0A&gt;will fly just fine without them.<br>=0A&gt;=
 &nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; Matt<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; ________________=
________________<br>=0A&gt; From: Art Jensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:flycassu=
tts@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:flycass=
utts@yahoo.com">flycassutts@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br>=0A&gt; To: <a href=3D"mai=
lto:lml@lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"ma=
ilto:lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net</a> <br>=0A&gt; Sent: Mon=
day, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM<br>=0A&gt; Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv<br>=0A&g=
t;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; Maybe Wolfgang was short on political correctness=
, but the truth remains <br>=0A&gt;that if you cannot or do not fly the pla=
ne as it was meant to be flown then=0A<br>=0A&gt;you should not be flying t=
hat plane. <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; I believe everyone would agree that flap=
s do add a margin of safety and <br>=0A&gt;should be used for take-off and =
landing as per your <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-72">POH</span> and =
I believe every=0A<br>=0A&gt;instructor giving training in a Lancair would =
agree.&nbsp;&nbsp;If an=0Ainstructor <br>=0A&gt;reading this disagrees, ple=
ase share why you disagree with me.<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; Art<br>=0A&gt; <=
br>=0A&gt; Sent from Yahoo! Mail for <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-74=
">iPad</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; ______________=
__________________<br>=0A&gt; From:&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"mark" id=3D"m=
isspell-75">steve</span> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:n5276j@aol.com" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:n5276j@aol.com">n5276j@aol.com</a>=
&gt;;&nbsp;&nbsp;To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.ne=
t">lml@lancaironline.net</a>&gt;;&nbsp;&nbsp;Subject:=0A<br>=0A&gt; [LML] R=
e: To Marv&nbsp;&nbsp;Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28=0APM&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; I second your post. I am surprised by the com=
ment. <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-77">steve=
</span> alderman&nbsp;&nbsp; N25SA&nbsp; 360 <br>=0A&gt; <br>=0A&gt; . <br>=
=0A&gt; -----Original Message----- From: Claudette <span class=3D"mark" id=
=3D"misspell-78">Colwell</span> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:colwell.ch@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:colwell.ch@gmail.com"=
>colwell.ch@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>=0A&gt;To: lml &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lml@=
lancaironline.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:lml=
@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net</a>&gt;=0ASent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013=
 5:43 am Subject: <br>=0A&gt;[LML] To Marv&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>=0A&gt; It is ver=
y regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed to Matt=0A<br>=0A=
&gt;appeared on the LML.&nbsp; This has always been a constructive exchange=
 of <br>=0A&gt;information and ideas.&nbsp; That type of personal comment i=
s not in=0Akeeping with <br>=0A&gt;the spirit of cooperative sharing of inf=
ormation. <br>=0A&gt; &nbsp; <br>=0A&gt; Claudette&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></font=
></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<pre style=3D"background: white;"><font color=3D"=
black" face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: black; font-si=
ze: 10pt;">--</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"background: white;"><font co=
lor=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color: black; =
font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"background: white=
;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or: black; font-size: 10pt;">For archives and <span class=3D"mark" id=3D"mi=
sspell-82">unsub</span> <a  href=3D"http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/=
lml/List.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">http://mail.lancaironline=
.net:81/lists/lml/List.html</a></span></font></pre></div> =0A=0A<div class=
=3D"yiv3972751426MsoNormal" style=3D"background: white; margin-bottom: 12pt=
;"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D=
"color: black; font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div> =0A=0A</div>=0A=
=0A</div>=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A</div>=0A=0A</div><br><b=
r></div> </div> </div>&nbsp; </div></body></html>
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