X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 08:00:18 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm3-vm6.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.5) with ESMTPS id 6420510 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Aug 2013 00:40:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.96; envelope-from=chris_zavatson@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.55] by nm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2013 04:39:48 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.172] by tm8.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2013 04:39:48 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Aug 2013 04:39:48 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 789833.5665.bm@omp1028.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 56156 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Aug 2013 04:39:48 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=L10xFGFR8kbqT7ne9gxFoIWDlCSwOvonRuQNXMvgN6f4mP+FR3GP5tlZ9yknyeYEm9Ey4b6ni0Mfq8+S38yOTCw0u5VfY47TXybTW9W5NTgR1Moz0wJQx+zi1sKyln5Z/Fpebi3gVC7hDFq2aYBquWX4/vgTLWg+Z78Bt6dfOvo=; X-YMail-OSG: o0uUBogVM1lBuBDMGUrOAQVneB6xCFwiNAeneJ8wkW_9C5S 3IKdWVkPo5X3gO8LZpAIHzn_TgbY16LmsuZP_h6a0JAWHQ2mYqlVCrZvtekT YfvXT7FanFzavKPPonnRiLojkljMNB6hjsB91Ydj5VzXX1nnnYr5aAzCS5B7 9cMp1N8MdxzGx5iSNds2v1fDPK1us9MZq.kFpMjqDa6i4LR7NIf8BpGIqgdo 3ounBNDnst4Zoc7oP_IY4ylcYYITuPbQaQuXV7biZuf2kxRwsdMUTgvm5Dhc cSPWwIDMWImUfqbkAApShoyhMn3VxoTUNX3llKWGpJowr2Q8TgUqWWtWyozV B3vv6oNySp7PVvBonK8r57oDlyPhdQ_Fcri.hYpmT9chRbMS3VLTwMF38R7z 4SE.0ix7sya3vDA7scjaPESctfMFRcLNPAQqpRbKESpRTtOOwkoQcbHnTG8S dyAo0Qk1R2I9CVlWJeabVqZeLE2Lla_3.rVlO8H2QINVb8tqZcWmi0GMwQ0D g.Vpa61fp9Htf0nokyf96wNV4x3m89JhLHD5Q_0oRzS_e7_M0fKZPcwM0Fhm BbAlGdIxJi9IyodNdcTwx1PaeRX.hsA-- Received: from [172.14.16.72] by web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:39:48 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SmltLApOb3cgdGhhdCBpcyB3b3JyaXNvbWUuwqAgSSBzdWdnZXN0IHlvdXIgZnJpZW5kIHdyaXRlIHVwIGEgbGFuZGluZyBjaGVja2xpc3QgKEdVTVBGIHcvbyB0aGUgVSBhdCBhIG1pbmltdW0pIHN1Y2ggdGhhdCBoZSBjYW4gZmx5IHdpdGggYW55IGdpdmVuIGNvLXBpbG90IG9yIG5vbmUgYXQgYWxsLsKgIFRoZSBwbGFuZSBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGNvbmZpZ3VyZWQgZm9yIGEgZ28tYXJvdW5kLsKgIC1nb29kIHRoaW5nIHlvdSBkaWRuJ3QgbmVlZCBvbmUuwqAKQ2hyaXMKIAoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX18BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.154.571 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1376627988.55931.YahooMailNeo@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 21:39:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zavatson Reply-To: Chris Zavatson Subject: Re: [LML] Flaps on take-off? X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1682663710-306304628-1376627988=:55931" ---1682663710-306304628-1376627988=:55931 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim,=0ANow that is worrisome.=C2=A0 I suggest your friend write up a landin= g checklist (GUMPF w/o the U at a minimum) such that he can fly with any gi= ven co-pilot or none at all.=C2=A0 The plane should have been configured fo= r a go-around.=C2=A0 -good thing you didn't need one.=C2=A0=0AChris=0A =0A= =0A________________________________=0A From: Jim Nordin =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:39= PM=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AI know how an engi= ne fails in the close=0Apattern environment. Decent from altitude and forge= t to richen the engine.=0AHappened to a friend while I was in the plane (ES= ) as copilot. Why did it=0Ahappen? His wife normally is co-pilot and I didn= =E2=80=99t prompt him with the=0Averbal clues he needed. Very close to touc= h down it just quit. No problem as we=0Awere only 100=C2=B1 feet above the = ground and nearly at the numbers. Scary=0Anonetheless =E2=80=93 mostly afte= r everything was on the ground and rolling out=0Asafely. He didn=E2=80=99t = waver from the task of landing - engine or no. =0AJim =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A_____= ___________________________=0A =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@= lancaironline.net] On Behalf=0AOf Lancair-ESP=0ASent: Thursday, August 15, = 2013=0A5:25 PM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] F= laps=0Aon take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill, =0A=C2=A0 =0AWhat you describe is= =0Acertainly a possible scenario =E2=80=93 actually that sounds like my typ= ical=0Aarrival.=C2=A0 With the engine pulled back to 10-12=E2=80=9D and a w= indmilling=0Aprop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feathe= red prop. =C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0ABut how likely is an engine that fails in=0At= he close pattern after a cross-country flight?=C2=A0 More likely something = would go afoul enroute, when the=0Apilot could select a landing spot and ar= rive 2000 ft above it. =C2=A0If not=0Aable to arrive 2000 ft agl =E2=80=93 = choose an alternate spot. =0A=C2=A0 =0AJust my couple lira=0A. . . =0A=C2= =A0 =0ARobert =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Bill Bradburry=0A[mailto:bbradburry@bellsou= th.net] =0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A2:06 PM=0ATo: lml@lancaironli= ne.net=0ASubject: RE: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps=0Aon take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AR= obert, =0A=C2=A0 =0AYou should try it under conditions that=0Aare more like= ly to be the case.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0ADescend to pattern altitude, 1000 ft= AGL,=0Aslow to pattern speed, and idle the engine abeam the numbers and se= e if you can=0Amake it =0A=C2=A0 =0AI recommend you idle the engine and not= =0Akill it, because I would be surprised if you do make it.=C2=A0 I also=0A= don=E2=80=99t recommend you coarse pitch the prop since you may need to add= power=0Afor the go around. =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill =0A=0A______________________= __________=0A =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Lancair-ESP=0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A11:18 AM=0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off? = =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill, =0A=C2=A0 =0AI practiced that=0Amaneuver with a Lancair = company pilot flying my ES-P and found it a=0Anon-event.=C2=A0 =0AOverhead= upwind at=0A2000 ft agl and slowing to pattern speed in the turn. =0ANo fl= aps until over=0Athe fence then deployed everything and aimed for 1/3 down = the runway.=C2=A0 =0A=C2=A0 =0AI realize the IV=0Awould take different spe= eds but it should still be do-able with a little=0Apractice. =0A=C2=A0 =0AR= obert =0AES-P N301ES =0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@be= llsouth.net] =0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A9:26 AM=0ATo: lml@lancairo= nline.net=0ASubject: RE: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AThat see= ms a scenario where you would be=0Ain better shape with the flaps up.=C2=A0= You very well might make the=0Arunway.=C2=A0 With flaps down, you likely w= ould not and it would be very=0Adangerous to try and retract them.=C2=A0 Wi= th the high wing loading that all=0Athe Lancairs have, they are flying bric= ks with no power.=C2=A0 I think almost=0Anobody makes the approach to land = with no power. =0ARemember way back in primary training when=0Athe instruct= or had you remove power abeam the numbers and make the landing=0Awithout ha= ving to add power?=C2=A0 Does anyone practice that maneuver with=0Atheir La= ncair? =0A=C2=A0 =0ABill B =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A________________________________= =0A =0AFrom:Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behal= f Of Bill Hannahan=0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A6:33 AM=0ATo: lml@lan= caironline.net=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0AMatt, I=0A= agree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a=0A= question. =0A=C2=A0 =0AWhat do you do if your low over the=0Adeparture en= d of the runway and the engine quits? =0A=C2=A0 =0A1.=C2=A0 Land at high = speed flaps up. =0A=C2=A0 =0A2.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Lower the flaps and deal=0Awi= th the big trim and pitch change while making all the other decisions and= =0Aactions required in parallel. =0A=C2=A0 =0A3.=C2=A0=C2=A0 ? =0A=C2=A0= =0ARegards, =0ABill=0AHannahan =0A=0Awfhannahan@yahoo.com =0A=C2=A0 = =0A-----=0AForwarded Message -----=0AFrom:"marv@lancair.net"=0A=0ATo: lml =0ASent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02=0APM=0ASubject= : [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off? =0A=C2=A0 =0A=0A=0A=0APosted for Matt los= angeles :=0A=0A> I feel much safer adding 5 kno= ts or so on the ground before I lift off so=0AI =0A>don't have to mess with= trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a =0A>scenario where I take = off IFR and I am immediately handed off to departure =0A>control while I am= putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the =0A>requires me to = look at my map and the next thing you know, while=0Adistracted, =0A>=C2=A0I= am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground. When I am=0Adown low= =0A>like that I want to make sure if I am distracted it isn't a problem, t= he =0A>plane just keeps on climbing along at Vy or so.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> I als= o would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds drag=C2=A0and=0Aslows= =0A>your rate of climb (I have not tested this).=C2=A0I am able to be at V= y a=0Acouple =0A>seconds after take off and I am going to get to a safer al= titude before the =0A>guy using flaps (again, this is my guess since I have= not tested the two =0A>scenarios).=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Another thing. It is an = experimental aircraft. As it states on the =0A>EAA,=C2=A0"There is=C2=A0=C2= =A0no FAA approved flight manual or POH=0Afor experimental =0A>aircraft, no= r is there a=C2=A0=C2=A0TC".=C2=A0 =0A> =C2=A0=0A> Ohh, what about those re= no racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded=0Athier =0A>flaps in place s= o they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of the =0A>hindges. I g= uess they are not flying those aircraft the way they were meant =0A>to be f= lown. You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also =0A>likely= they are using those planes the other 51 weeks out of the year to=0Afly = =0A>all over the place and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeof= f.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margi= n of=0Asafety"=0A> =C2=A0I personally consider myself part of everyone and = I don't agree that=0Aflaps =0A>do in fact add a margin of safety on take of= f. I use them on landing so I=0Acan =0A>see out the window and out of habit= I suppose.=C2=A0If the speed you land=0Aat makes =0A>such a difference, th= en the best thing to be doing is flying a plane that =0A>lands at a slower = speed.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Perhaps if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly follo= wing the POH makes =0A>sense. It is funny, I remember having this EXACT sam= e argument on a Mooney =0A>board. I used to take off without flaps when I h= ad a Mooney and I heard the =0A>same thing there. Follow the POH explicitly= =C2=A0or you are completely=0Areckless =0A>and should have your license tak= en away. At least those Mooney guys had a =0A>point. That was a certified a= ircraft with a POH that said to take off with =0A>flaps.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Som= ething else to consider, if flaps are so critical to flight on our =0A>plan= es, why on earth don't they have a back up system to ensure they always =0A= >go down when needed like our landing gear has? My guess is because the=0Ap= lane =0A>will fly just fine without them.=0A> =C2=A0=0A> Matt=0A> =0A> =0A>= ________________________________=0A> From: Art Jensen =0A> To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 P= M=0A> Subject: [LML] Re: To Marv=0A>=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> Maybe Wolfgang was sho= rt on political correctness, but the truth remains =0A>that if you cannot o= r do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown then =0A>you should not = be flying that plane. =0A> =0A> I believe everyone would agree that flaps d= o add a margin of safety and =0A>should be used for take-off and landing as= per your POH and I believe every =0A>instructor giving training in a Lanca= ir would agree.=C2=A0=C2=A0If an=0Ainstructor =0A>reading this disagrees, p= lease share why you disagree with me.=0A> =0A> Art=0A> =0A> Sent from Yahoo= ! Mail for iPad=C2=A0=C2=A0=0A> =0A> =0A> ________________________________= =0A> From:=C2=A0=C2=A0steve ;=C2=A0=C2=A0To:=C2=A0=C2=A0;=C2=A0=C2=A0Subject: =0A> [LML] Re: To Marv=C2=A0=C2= =A0Sent:=C2=A0=C2=A0Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:39:28=0APM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =0A> I second your post. I am surprised by the comment. =0A> =0A> steve ald= erman=C2=A0=C2=A0 N25SA=C2=A0 360 =0A> =0A> . =0A> -----Original Message---= -- From: Claudette Colwell =0A>To: lml =0ASent: Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject: =0A>[LML] To Marv=C2= =A0=C2=A0=0A> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently dir= ected to Matt =0A>appeared on the LML.=C2=A0 This has always been a constru= ctive exchange of =0A>information and ideas.=C2=A0 That type of personal co= mment is not in=0Akeeping with =0A>the spirit of cooperative sharing of inf= ormation. =0A> =C2=A0 =0A> Claudette=C2=A0=C2=A0 =0A--=0A=C2=A0=0AFor arch= ives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ---1682663710-306304628-1376627988=:55931 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim,
Now that is worrisome.  I suggest your friend write up a landin= g checklist (GUMPF w/o the U = at a minimum) such that he can fly with any given co-pilot or none at all.&= nbsp; The plane should have been configured for a go-around.  -good th= ing you didn't need one. 
Chris

From: Jim Nordin<= /span> <panelmaker@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 6:39 PM
Subject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?<= br>

=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
I= know how an engine fails in the close=0Apattern environment. Decent from a= ltitude and forget to richen = the engine.=0AHappened to a friend while I was in the plane (ES) as copilot= . Why did it=0Ahappen? His wife normally is co-pilot and I didn=E2=80=99t prompt him with the=0Averbal c= lues he needed. Very close to touch down it just quit. No problem as we=0Aw= ere only 100=C2=B1 feet above the ground and nearly at the numbers. Scary= =0Anonetheless =E2=80=93 mostly after everything was on the ground and roll= ing out=0Asafely. He didn=E2= =80=99t waver from the task of landing - engine or no.
= =0A=0A
Jim=
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A= =0A
=0A=0A
=0A= =0A
= From: Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lanc= aironline.net] On Behalf=0AOf = Lancair-ESP
=0ASent: Thursday, August 15, 2013=0A5:25 PM
=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: FW: [LML] Flaps=0Aon take-off?
=0A=0A=0A=0A
 
=0A= =0A
Bill,
=0A=0A
&= nbsp;
=0A=0A
What you describe is=0Ac= ertainly a possible scenario =E2=80=93 actually that sounds like my typical= =0Aarrival.  With the engine pulled back to 10-12=E2=80=9D and a windm= illing=0Aprop the decent rate should be similar zero power and a feathered = prop.  
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
But how likely is an engine that fails in=0Athe close pat= tern after a cross-country flight?  More likely something would go afoul <= span class=3D"mark" id=3D"misspell-11">enroute, when the=0Apilot cou= ld select a landing spot and arrive 2000 ft above it.  If not=0Aable t= o arrive 2000 ft agl =E2=80= =93 choose an alternate spot.
=0A=0A
=  
=0A=0A
Just my couple lira=0A.= . .
=0A=0A
 =0A=0A
Robert
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
From:= Bill Bradbu= rry=0A[mailto:bbradburry@bellsouth.net]
=0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013=0A2:06 PM
= =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.n= et
=0ASubject: RE: [LML= ] FW: [LML] Flaps=0Aon take-= off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
Robert,=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
You should try it under condition= s that=0Aare more likely to be the case. 
=0A=0A&= nbsp;
=0A=0A
Descend to pattern altitude, 1000 ft AGL,=0Aslow to pattern speed, and = idle the engine abeam the numbers and see if you can=0Amake it
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
I recommend you idle the eng= ine and not=0Akill it, because I would be surprised if you do make it. = ; I also=0Adon=E2=80=99t recommend you coarse pitch the prop since you may = need to add power=0Afor the go around.
=0A=0A
=  
=0A=0A
Bill
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
From: Lancair Mailing=0AList [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lancair-ESP
=0ASent: Wednesday, August 14, = 2013=0A11:18 AM
=0ATo: = lml@lancaironline.net
=0A<= b>Subject: [LML] FW: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
Bill,
=0A= =0A
 
=0A=0A
= I practiced that=0Amaneuver with a Lancair company pilot flying my ES-P and= found it a=0Anon-event. 
=0A=0A
agl<= /span> and slowing to pattern speed in the turn.
=0A=0A<= div class=3D"yiv0685827096MsoNormal">No flaps until over=0Athe fence then deployed everything= and aimed for 1/3 down the runway. 
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
I realize = the IV=0Awould take different speeds but it should still be do-able with a = little=0Apractice.
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
Robert
=0A=0AES-P N301ES
=0A=0A
=  
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
From: Bill Bradburry [mailto:bbradburry@bel= lsouth.net]
=0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A9:26 AM
=0ATo: lml@lancair= online.net
=0ASubject:<= /b> RE: [LML] Flaps on=0Atake-off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A
 
= =0A=0A
That seems a scenario where you would be=0Ain better shape with the = flaps up.  You very well might make the=0Arunway.  With flaps dow= n, you likely would not and it would be very=0Adangerous to try and retract= them.  With the high wing loading that all=0Athe Lancairs have, they are flying bricks with no po= wer.  I think almost=0Anobody makes the approach to land with no power= .
=0A=0A
Remember way back in primary training when=0Ath= e instructor had you remove power abeam the numbers and make the landing=0A= without having to add power?  Does anyone practice that maneuver with= =0Atheir Lancair?
=0A=0A
 
=0A= =0A
Bill B
=0A=0A
<= font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> 
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
From:<= span style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;"> Lancair Mailing=0ALis= t [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Hannahan
=0ASent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013=0A6:33 AM=0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net
=0ASubject: [LML] Flaps on take-off?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Matt, I=0Aagree with the others that w's insults are inexcusable, but I must ask a=0Aquestion.<= /font>
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A
= =0A=0A
=0A=0A
What do you do if your low over the=0Adeparture end of the runway= and the engine quits?
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A 
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
1.  Land at high speed flaps up.<= /span>
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
2.   Lower the flaps and deal=0Awith the big trim a= nd pitch change while making all the other decisions and=0Aactions required= in parallel.
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 =
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
3.   ?
=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A
 =0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Regards,
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
=0A=0A
Bill=0AHannahan
=0A=0A
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-----=0AForwarded Message -----
=0AFrom: "marv@lancair.net"=0A<marv= @lancair.net>
=0ATo:= lml <lml>
=0ASent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:02=0APM
=0ASubject: [LML] Re: Flaps on=0Atake-off?=
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=0APosted for Matt losangeles <mattinlosangeles@yahoo.com>:
=0A
=0A> I feel much saf= er adding 5 knots or so on the ground before I lift off so=0AI
=0A>d= on't have to mess with trim when I am low to the ground. I could see a
= =0A>scenario where I take off IF= R and I am immediately handed off to departure
=0A>control wh= ile I am putting the flaps up. They tell me to do something the
=0A>= requires me to look at my map and the next thing you know, while=0Adistract= ed,
=0A> I am at an unusual attitude really close to the ground= . When I am=0Adown low
=0A>like that I want to make sure if I am dis= tracted it isn't a problem, the
=0A>plane just keeps on climbing alo= ng at Vy or so.
=0A> &= nbsp;
=0A> I also would guess if you use flaps on take off, this adds= drag and=0Aslows
=0A>your rate of climb (I have not tested thi= s). I am able to be at Vy a=0Acouple
=0A>seconds after take off and I am going to get to a = safer altitude before the=0A
=0A>guy using flaps (again, this is my g= uess since I have not tested the two
=0A>scenarios).
=0A> &nbs= p;
=0A> Another thing. It is an experimental aircraft. As it states o= n the
=0A>EAA, "= There is  no FAA approved flight manual or POH=0Afor experimental
=0A>aircraft, nor is= there a  TC". 
=0A>  
=0A> Ohh, what about those reno racer Legacy aircraft that have just bonded= =0Athier
=0A>flaps in= place so they can't go down in order to eliminate the drag of the
=0A&= gt;hindges. I guess they are= not flying those aircraft the way they were meant=0A
=0A>to be flown= . You could argue they are reno racers I suppose. It is also
=0A>likely they are using those pla= nes the other 51 weeks out of the year to=0Afly
=0A>all over the pla= ce and those planes don't seem to be crashing on takeoff.
=0A>  =
=0A> "I believe everyone would agree that flaps do add a margin of= =0Asafety"
=0A>  I personally consider myself part of everyone a= nd I don't agree that=0Aflaps
=0A>do in fact add a margin of safety = on take off. I use them on landing so I=0Acan
=0A>see out the window= and out of habit I suppose. If the speed you land=0Aat makes
=0A&= gt;such a difference, then the best thing to be doing is flying a plane tha= t
=0A>lands at a slower speed.
=0A>  
=0A> Perhaps = if we were all 100 hour pilots, blindly following the POH makes
=0A>sense. It is funny, I rememb= er having this EXACT same argument on a Mooney
=0A>board. I used to = take off without flaps when I had a Mooney and I heard the=0A
=0A>sam= e thing there. Follow the POH explicitly or you are completely=0Areckless
=0A>and should ha= ve your license taken away. At least those Mooney guys had a
=0A>poi= nt. That was a certified aircraft with a POH that said to take off with
=0A>flaps.
=0A> &n= bsp;
=0A> Something else to consider, if flaps are so critical to fli= ght on our
=0A>planes, why on earth don't they have a back up system= to ensure they always=0A
=0A>go down when needed like our landing ge= ar has? My guess is because the=0Aplane
=0A>will fly just fine witho= ut them.
=0A>  
=0A> Matt
=0A>
=0A>
=0A&g= t; ________________________________
=0A> From: Art Jensen <flycassutts@yahoo.com>
=0A>= To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 1:46 PM
=0A> Subject: [LML] R= e: To Marv
=0A>  
=0A> Maybe Wolfgang was short on po= litical correctness, but the truth remains
=0A>that if you cannot or= do not fly the plane as it was meant to be flown then=0A
=0A>you sho= uld not be flying that plane.
=0A>
=0A> I believe everyone wo= uld agree that flaps do add a margin of safety and
=0A>should be use= d for take-off and landing as per your POH and I believe every=0A
=0A>instructor giving training = in a Lancair would agree.  If an=0Ainstructor
=0A>reading = this disagrees, please share why you disagree with me.
=0A>
=0A&g= t; Art
=0A>
=0A> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad  
=0A>
=0A>
=0A= > ________________________________
=0A> From:  steve <n5276j@aol.com>;  To:  <lml@lancaironline.net>;  Subject:=0A=
=0A> [LML] Re: To Marv  Sent:  Mon, Aug 12, 2013= 5:39:28=0APM    
=0A> I second your post. I am s= urprised by the comment.
=0A>
=0A> steve alderman   N25SA  360
=0A>=
=0A> .
=0A> -----Original Message----- From: Claudette Colwell <colwell.ch@gmail.com>
=0A>To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>=0ASent:= Mon, Aug 12, 2013 5:43 am Subject:
=0A>[LML] To Marv  =0A> It is very regretful the comment from Wolfgang apparently directed= to Matt=0A
=0A>appeared on the LML.  This has always been a con= structive exchange of
=0A>information and ideas.  That type of = personal comment is not in=0Akeeping with
=0A>the spirit of cooperat= ive sharing of information.
=0A>  
=0A> Claudette &= nbsp;
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