X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:27:55 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-db01.mx.aol.com ([205.188.91.95] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6024853 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:43:54 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.91.95; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaout-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.6]) by imr-db01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id BBC5638000054 for ; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.90.120.237] (mobile-166-147-080-156.mycingular.net [166.147.80.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-ma06.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 44317E0000BB; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 21:43:18 -0500 (EST) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2AF2C12E-75E8-4E70-8C7D-F90A50F84400 X-Original-Message-Id: <93B6F43E-D714-41D3-9476-69E11BD90DC3@aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: IFR to VFR on top X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:43:14 -0800 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:468104480:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290650ff4e4640b0 X-AOL-IP: 166.147.80.156 --Apple-Mail-2AF2C12E-75E8-4E70-8C7D-F90A50F84400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Which is why I asked the original question... The accident pilot was operati= ng VFR in presumably IMC conditions with "flight following" which is a term o= f art for VFR ATC assistance and is not an IFR clearance. I believe Skip sai= d the weather in the San Diego area was poor the day of the accident.=20 Jeff Sent from my iPad On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:44 PM, Hugh Bergeron wrote: > Obviously I was misunderstood, in my question I was talking about "VFR" to= VFR on top. Back in the late 1950's, as a tower operator at an Air Force b= ase in Indiana, Indianapolis Center frequently used this clearance for Milit= ary scrambles when weather conditions permitted, for obvious reasons (they d= idn't have to clear any airspace for the scramble). I remember one occasion= where an Air Force pilot, after having been given this clearance, flew thro= ugh a solid layer (at a fairly high altitude) and was busted for doing so. >=20 > Hugh >=20 > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:25:25 -0500 > From: ralphlove@stanfordalumni.org > Subject: [LML] Re: IFR to VFR on top >=20 > When you ask for an IFR clearance, they never ask if you are IFR qualified= and current. They just give you the clearance. The same is true with IFR to= VFR on top, but legally you better be qualified and current >=20 > Pink Panfher > Ralph Love >=20 > On Jan 22, 2013, at 9:24 AM, "Skip Slater" wrote:= >=20 > "VFR to VFR-on-top, where you wanted the benefits of an IFR clearance but s= ome of the freedom of VFR conditions, was a common clearance used in militar= y scrambles back when I was a military controller. Is this clearance still a= vailable today?" > =20 > All I can tell you is that I've not had a problem getting one when I neede= d it. I've gotten them from for a couple of departures from Orange County a= nd Santa Barbara airports when they've had marine layers on the coast. With= tops around 2000' and CAVU conditions just a few miles inland, it's a good o= ption. I just request it from clearance delivery and they give me an IFR de= parture with a clearance limit. Once I'm on top and am leaving their Class= C, I just cancel and proceed VFR. > =20 > When you think about it, it's really no different than flying somewhere VFR= and finding the weather has closed in at your destination. You call approa= ch, request an IFR clearance to the airport and they give you one. Not some= thing you'd normally do, but it is an option. > =20 > Skip --Apple-Mail-2AF2C12E-75E8-4E70-8C7D-F90A50F84400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Which is why I asked the o= riginal question... The accident pilot was operating VFR in presumably IMC c= onditions with "flight following" which is a term of art for VFR ATC assista= nce and is not an IFR clearance. I believe Skip said the weather in the San D= iego area was poor the day of the accident. 

Jeff
Sent from m= y iPad

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:44 PM, Hugh Bergeron <hpbergeron@hotmail.com> wrote:
Obviously I was misunderstood, in my question I was talking about "VFR= " to VFR on top.  Back in the late 1950's, as a tower operator a= t an Air Force base in Indiana, Indianapolis Center frequently used this cle= arance for Military scrambles when weather conditions permitted, for obvious= reasons (they didn't have to clear any airspace for the scramble).  I r= emember one occasion where an Air Force pilot, after having been given this c= learance, flew through a solid layer (at a fairly high altitude) and was bus= ted for doing so.

Hugh

To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:25:25 -0500<= br>From: ralphlove@stanforda= lumni.org
Subject: [LML] Re: IFR to VFR on top

When you a= sk for an IFR clearance, they never ask if you are IFR qualified and current= . They just give you the clearance. The same is true with IFR to VFR on top,= but legally you better be qualified and current

Pi= nk Panfher
Ralph Love

On Jan 22, 2013, at 9:24 AM, "= Skip Slater" <skipslater@verizo= n.net> wrote:

"VFR to VFR-on-top, where you wanted th= e benefits=20 of an IFR clearance but some of the freedom of VFR conditions, was a common=20= clearance used in military scrambles back when I was a military controller. I= s=20 this clearance still available today?"
 
All I can tell you is that I've not had= a problem=20 getting one when I needed it.  I've gotten them from for a couple of=20= departures from Orange County and Santa Barbara airports when they've had ma= rine=20 layers on the coast.  With tops around 2000' and CAVU conditions just a= few=20 miles inland, it's a good option.  I just request it from clearance=20 delivery and they give me an IFR departure with a clearance limit. &nbs= p;=20 Once I'm on top and am leaving their Class C, I just cancel and proceed= =20 VFR.
 
When you think about it, it's really no= different=20 than flying somewhere VFR and finding the weather has closed in at your=20 destination.  You call approach, request an IFR clearance to the airpor= t=20 and they give you one.  Not something you'd normally do, but it is an=20= option.
 
Skip
<= /div>
= --Apple-Mail-2AF2C12E-75E8-4E70-8C7D-F90A50F84400--