X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 19:44:23 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nk11p04mm-asmtp002.mac.com ([17.158.236.237] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6024373 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:58:30 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=17.158.236.237; envelope-from=paulbesing@me.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_iOi93t4/k28jYuEX4BFgkw)" Received: from [10.100.7.81] (122-201-44-23.reverse.newskies.net [122.201.44.23]) by nk11p04mm-asmtp002.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-26.01(7.0.4.26.0) 64bit (built Jul 13 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MH1004M9OVZ9MC0@nk11p04mm-asmtp002.mac.com> for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jan 2013 20:57:55 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.9.8327,1.0.431,0.0.0000 definitions=2013-01-22_07:2013-01-22,2013-01-22,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=6.0.2-1203120001 definitions=main-1301220200 From: Paul Besing X-Original-Message-id: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: WPR13FA076 X-Original-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 01:27:34 +0430 References: X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-reply-to: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) --Boundary_(ID_iOi93t4/k28jYuEX4BFgkw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Don: First of all, I am a CFII and have not only taught in IMC conditions, = but have flown cargo operations in IMC/IFR situations without a flight = plan. =20 There are many times where you can have an IFR clearance without a = flight plan. Tower in route clearance is a perfect example. VFR on top = is another. Yes, it is an IFR *Clearance* but it does NOT require a = flight plan. However, you can be on an IFR flight plan and get a VFR = on Top clearance. I think this is semantics, and as usual get 10 pilots = (or engineers :-P ) in the same room and get different opinions. =20 Nevertheless, you absolutely can be VFR on Top without a flight plan. = Don, I'm sure you are a knowledgable pilot, but suggesting that everyone = is wrong and to consult a CFII should be backed up by you consulting a = CFII (or how about the AIM, for example) before you accuse people of = being wrong. =20 Paul Besing ATP, CFII On Jan 23, 2013, at 1:17 AM, Danny wrote: > Don, > No, it=92s you who is wrong. IFR to VFR on top is a common clearance, = especially in places such as southern CA where an early morning and late = evening marine layer is common. I=92ve done it so many times I=92ve = lost count, not that anybody was counting in the first place. Raise = your awareness. > =20 > Danny > LNC2-360 > N 38=B0 43' 25.7" > W 77=B0 30' 38.6" > Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool. > =20 > From: Don Karich [mailto:donkarich@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 3:25 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: WPR13FA076 > =20 > My one word response was a clue that you definitely need to discuss = this with a CFII. You are soo wrong >=20 > On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Paul Miller = wrote: > Yep Skip, another waste of everyone's time and non-helpful response = ("wrong"). The fact is I have done exactly the same thing, VFR Flight, = needed an IFR clearance to VFR conditions without a flight plan. My = last was in the Legacy at night with a layer on top of the destination = airport. I asked approach for a IFR descent clearance from 4000 to 2000 = through the clouds, got it, broke out and cancelled, landed VFR. In the = last 5 years I've found controllers extremely willing to be helpful to = VFR pilots who ask for assistance. >=20 > Paul > Legacy > On 2013-01-21, at 12:37 PM, "Skip Slater" = wrote: >=20 > > Possibly IFR to VFR on top, then cancel. I've done that a couple of = times to take off from coastal airports with a marine layer that only = extended a few miles inland. Don't need a flight plan to do that. > > > > Skip Slater > > > > -- > > For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html >=20 >=20 > -- > For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html > =20 --Boundary_(ID_iOi93t4/k28jYuEX4BFgkw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Don:

First = of all, I am a CFII and have not only taught in IMC conditions, but have = flown cargo operations in IMC/IFR situations without a flight plan. =  

There are many times where you can have = an IFR clearance without a flight plan.  Tower in route clearance = is a perfect example.  VFR on top is another.  Yes, it is an = IFR *Clearance* but it does NOT require a flight plan.   However, = you can be on an IFR flight plan and get a VFR on Top clearance.  I = think this is semantics, and as usual get 10 pilots (or engineers :-P ) = in the same room and get different opinions. =  

Nevertheless, you absolutely can be VFR on Top = without a flight plan.  Don, I'm sure you are a knowledgable pilot, = but suggesting that everyone is wrong and to consult a CFII should be = backed up by you consulting a CFII (or how about the AIM, for example) = before you accuse people of being wrong. =  

Paul Besing
ATP, = CFII


On Jan 23, 2013, at 1:17 AM, = Danny <danny@n107sd.com> = wrote:

No, it=92s you who = is wrong.  IFR to VFR on top is = a common clearance, especially in places such as southern CA where an = early morning and late evening marine layer is common.  I=92ve done it so = many times I=92ve lost count, not that anybody was counting in the first = place.  Raise your = awareness.
N 38=B0 43' = 25.7"
W 77=B0 30' = 38.6"
Nothing is = foolproof to a sufficiently talented = fool.
From: Don = Karich [mailto:donkarich@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 = 3:25 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = WPR13FA076
 

My one word response was a clue that you definitely need to = discuss this with a CFII. You are soo = wrong

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Paul Miller <pjdmiller@gmail.com> = wrote:
Yep Skip, another waste of everyone's time and non-helpful = response ("wrong").   The fact is I have done exactly the same = thing, VFR Flight, needed an IFR clearance to VFR conditions without a = flight plan.  My last was in the Legacy at night with a layer on = top of the destination airport.  I asked approach for a IFR descent = clearance from 4000 to 2000 through the clouds, got it, broke out and = cancelled, landed VFR.  In the last 5 years I've found controllers = extremely willing to be helpful to VFR pilots who ask for = assistance.

Paul
Legacy
On 2013-01-21, at 12:37 PM, "Skip Slater" = <skipslater@verizon.net> = wrote:

> Possibly IFR to VFR on top, then cancel.  I've = done that a couple of times to take off from coastal airports with a = marine layer that only extended a few miles inland.  Don't need a = flight plan to do that.
>
> Skip = Slater
>
> --
> For archives and unsub