X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:32:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail1.btc-bci.com ([208.25.96.26] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6014305 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:47:30 -0500 Received-SPF: error receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.25.96.26; envelope-from=dwills@glbelt.com Received: from DWHome (SWM-HIGH-SPEED4-211.btc-bci.com [216.176.19.211]) by mail1.btc-bci.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id r0G3ksbR008377 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:46:54 -0500 From: "DW/10G" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Wing cuff videos X-Original-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:46:47 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <006401cdf39c$1bffa940$53fefbc0$@glbelt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01CDF372.332CFCA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHCM9gjboNNkLoVwtqqkf1k1D7YK5hi0Dzg Content-Language: en-us This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01CDF372.332CFCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks John got the files. Much appreciated Dale Wills DO NOT FORWARD! This transmission is intended solely for the use of the recipient and may contain information that is legally privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is strictly prohibited. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. Anyone who receives this message in error should notify the sender immediately, and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Smith Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 7:46 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Wing cuff videos George, and anyone else who wants to see these. Just send me a personal email at john@jjts.net.au - then I will be able to send you a Drop Box Invitation to share / access a directory with these wing cuff videos. [I tried to to this on the LML site, but doesn't seem to work..sorry] Regards, John John N G Smith Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 Mobile: +61-409-372-975 Email: john@jjts.net.au From: George Wehrung Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Friday, 11 January 2013 1:01 AM To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins John, It seems they have taken down the videos. George On Jan 10, 2013, at 5:45 AM, John Smith wrote: Hi George, I originally downloaded the videos from a link proved to me by Lancair. I've been trying it (see below) but the link is not valid - so I'm guessing the videos may have been removed. But have a try yourself - may work for you? I have the 5 videos (all of the Legacy FG) totalling 230MB. Not emailable - but I can upload them somewhere via FTP if you like - can use Skype for this, or other tools like coreFTP etc. just let me know and we'll make it happen somehow. Below is what I was provided with in early 2009. The cuffs improve the stall characteristics greatly. Take a look at the following: www.lancair.com/legacy_cuff_test Effectively, these tests are full aft stick limited deep stalls with flaps up, take off, down, 30 degree bank, and power on. The tests were conducted in some pretty bumpy conditions. There was no more than 5 degree roll off without power and less than 10 degree roll off with power. These tests were not conducted with the ventral. We are not looking to extend the rudder as of now. We are still investigating this though. Regards, John John N G Smith Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 Mobile: +61-409-372-975 Email: john@jjts.net.au From: George Wehrung Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 9:34 PM To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins John, I would be interested in watching some of the videos on the ES in particular if not the other airframes. Are they posted on the Internet by chance, doubtful but I thought I'd ask. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:50, John Smith wrote: From my perspective, the key phrase is spin resistance. Having researched the NASA material and having also seen the Lancair videos of actual flight testing, rightly or wrongly, I installed the wing cuffs to the Legacy on the basis that they seemed to offer the opportunity to make it harder to get into trouble, but accepting that if pushed too far into a spin, then the aircraft may or may not be recoverable. So, if one accepts the view of many which is that "as was", the aircraft was not spin recoverable, there would only appear to be upside from installing the cuffs. The flaw is, of course, that if indeed the Legacy is spin recoverable without wing cuffs, then the addition of the wing cuffs may preclude spin recovery! Unless someone goes to the trouble of spin testing the Legacy, or any other type fitted with cuffs, one will never know whether spin recoveries are possible under what flight and loading circumstances and, of course, with or without wing cuffs. Meanwhile, per my prior post on this, all I can say is that the albeit very limited flight testing (straight and level, and continuous 30deg AoB turns) in my Legacy fitted with the cuffs shows that there is plenty of warning of the impending stall - stall strips give the first "gentle" warning", followed by the more severe intermittent "shuddering" as the centre section drops in and out of the stall (whilst the outboard sections are still flying). I'm happy to talk to anyone if they are interested to talk about this more.. numbers below, but please note time is UTC + 8!! Regards, John John N G Smith Tel / fax: +61-8-9385-8891 Mobile: +61-409-372-975 Email: john@jjts.net.au From: Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 2:25 AM To: Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & Spins Posted for "Peter Field" : Dear Lancair Drivers: I've been following the discussion on stalls and spins and I want to add some additional factual information purely for your personal consumption and reflection. Attached are excerpts from 10 different 1980-90 NASA flight test final reports on a series of GA airplanes in which NASA evaluated the use of cuffs on leading edges to improve the behavior of the test airplane approaching the stall. For various reasons the cuffs improved lateral control entering the stall, but had the adverse effect of destabilizing the aircraft once a fully developed spin was achieved. Essentially, stall behavior was improved at the sacrifice of spin recovery. Cuffs on wing leading edges are an add on design fix, the more elegant solution is "washout," where the wing is twisted so the outer portions of the wing always operate at a lower angle of attack. To my knowledge, Lancair has never subjected any of their aircraft to a fully developed spin matrix complete with appropriate instrumentation and a spin recovery chute. There is no FAA requirement for them to do so - it's an Experimental Category airplane. Early on they may have lightly touched on such testing; but I have never seen any documentation on a fully completed spin matrix, which would involve at least 160 spins at various cg's and lateral loadings. In my opinion, it would be highly risky to fool around much beyond the stall in any Lancair - there is no documentation that indicates any of these airplanes can always be recovered from a one turn incipient phase spin or any fully developed spin. Being good at spin recovery isn't so much a matter of how skillful a pilot you are, it's a matter of how many spins you've experienced in airplanes known to be recoverable. Being familiar with the stall characteristics of your own airplane should be a matter of personal preference. Best regards, Pete Field (LNC2) USNTPS graduate & spin recovery instructor -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01CDF372.332CFCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks John got the files.

 

Much appreciated


Dale Wills

 

 

 

 

DO NOT FORWARD!  This transmission is intended solely for the = use of the recipient and may contain information that is legally = privileged, confidential or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the = intended recipient, please note that any dissemination, distribution, or = copying of this communication or use of = the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) = is strictly prohibited. Although = this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any = virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which = it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to = ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the = sender, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from = its use.  Anyone who receives this message in error should = notify the sender immediately, and = destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy = format.

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = John Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 7:46 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Wing = cuff videos

 

= George, and anyone else who wants to see these…  Just send me = a personal email at  john@jjts.net.au  - then I = will be able to send you a Drop Box Invitation to share / access a = directory with these wing cuff videos. [I tried to to this on the LML = site, but doesn't seem to = work….sorry]

=

Regards,

John
<= br>=
John N G Smith
Tel / fax: =    +61-8-9385-8891
Mobile: =      +61-409-372-975
Email: =         john@jjts.net.au

=  

From: George Wehrung <gw5@me.com>
Reply-To: = Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Friday, 11 January 2013 1:01 AM
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & = Spins

=  

= John,

=  

= It seems they have taken down the = videos.

=  

= George

=  

=  

=  

=  

= On Jan 10, 2013, at 5:45 AM, John Smith <john@jjts.net.au> = wrote:

=

= Hi George,

=  

= I originally downloaded the videos from a link proved to me by Lancair. = I've been trying it (see below) but the link is not valid – so I'm = guessing the videos may have been removed. But have a try yourself = – may work for you?  I have the 5 videos (all of the Legacy = FG) totalling 230MB. Not emailable – but I can upload them = somewhere via FTP if you like – can use Skype for this, or other = tools like coreFTP etc… just let me know and we'll make it happen = somehow.

=  

= Below is what I was provided with in early = 2009.

=  

Th= e cuffs improve the stall characteristics greatly.  Take a look at = the following:

&n= bsp;

www.lancair.com/legacy_c= uff_test

&n= bsp;

Ef= fectively, these tests are full aft stick limited deep stalls with flaps = up, take off, down, 30 degree bank,  and power on.  The tests = were conducted in some pretty bumpy conditions.  There was no more = than 5 degree roll off without power and less than 10 degree roll off = with power.

&n= bsp;

Th= ese tests were not conducted with the ventral.  We are not looking = to extend the rudder as of now.  We are still investigating this = though.

 

=

Regards,

John
<= br>=
John N G Smith
Tel / fax: =    +61-8-9385-8891
Mobile: =      +61-409-372-975
Email: =         john@jjts.net.au

=  

From: George Wehrung <gw5@me.com>
Reply-To: = Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 9:34 PM
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & = Spins

=  

= John, 

=  

= I would be interested in watching some of the videos on the ES in = particular if not the other airframes. Are they posted on the Internet = by chance, doubtful but I thought I'd = ask.

=  

=  

=

Sent from my iPhone

=
On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:50, John Smith <john@jjts.net.au> = wrote:

= From my perspective, the key phrase is spin = resistance.

=  

= Having researched the NASA material and having also seen the Lancair = videos of actual flight testing, rightly or wrongly, I installed the = wing cuffs to the Legacy on the basis that they seemed to offer the = opportunity to make it harder to get into trouble, but accepting that if = pushed too far into a spin, then the aircraft may or may not be = recoverable. So, if one accepts the view of many which is that = "as was", the aircraft was not spin recoverable, there would = only appear to be upside from installing the cuffs. The flaw is, of = course, that if indeed the Legacy is spin recoverable without wing = cuffs, then the addition of the wing cuffs may preclude spin = recovery!

=  

= Unless someone goes to the trouble of spin testing the Legacy, or any = other type fitted with cuffs, one will never know whether spin = recoveries are possible under what flight and loading circumstances and, = of course, with or without wing = cuffs.

=  

= Meanwhile, per my prior post on this, all I can say is that the albeit = very limited flight testing (straight and level, and continuous 30deg = AoB turns) in my Legacy fitted with the cuffs shows that there is plenty = of warning of the impending stall – stall strips give the first = "gentle" warning", followed by the more severe = intermittent "shuddering" as the centre section drops in and = out of the stall (whilst the outboard sections are still = flying).

=  

= I'm happy to talk to anyone if they are interested to talk about this = more…. numbers below, but please note time is UTC + = 8!!

=  

=  

= Regards,

John
<= br>=
John N G Smith
Tel / fax: =    +61-8-9385-8891
Mobile: =      +61-409-372-975
Email: =         john@jjts.net.au

=  

From: <marv@lancair.net>
Reply-To:= Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Date: Tuesday, 8 January 2013 2:25 AM
To: = <lml>
Subject: [LML] Re: Stalls & = Spins

=  

<= br>
Posted for "Peter Field" <pfield.avn@gmail.com>:
Dear Lancair Drivers:



I've been following the discussion = on stalls and spins and I want to add
some additional factual = information purely for your personal consumption = and
reflection.  Attached are excerpts from 10 different = 1980-90 NASA flight
test final reports on a series of GA airplanes in = which NASA evaluated the
use of cuffs on leading edges to improve the = behavior of the test airplane
approaching the stall.  For = various reasons the cuffs improved lateral
control entering the = stall, but had the adverse effect of destabilizing the
aircraft once = a fully developed spin was achieved.  Essentially, = stall
behavior was improved at the sacrifice of spin = recovery.  Cuffs on wing
leading edges are an add on design = fix, the more elegant solution is
"washout," where the wing = is twisted so the outer portions of the wing
always operate at a = lower angle of attack.



To my knowledge, Lancair has never = subjected any of their aircraft to a
fully developed spin matrix = complete with appropriate instrumentation and a
spin recovery = chute.  There is no FAA requirement for them to do so - = it's
an Experimental Category airplane.  Early on they may = have lightly touched
on such testing; but I have never seen any = documentation on a fully
completed spin matrix, which would involve = at least 160 spins at various
cg's and lateral = loadings.  In my opinion, it would be highly risky to = fool
around much beyond the stall in any Lancair - there is no = documentation that
indicates any of these airplanes can always be = recovered from a one turn
incipient phase spin or any fully developed = spin.  Being good at spin
recovery isn't so much a matter = of how skillful a pilot you are, it's a
matter of how many spins = you've experienced in airplanes known to = be
recoverable.  Being familiar with the stall = characteristics of your own
airplane should be a matter of personal = preference.  



Best regards,

Pete Field = (LNC2)

USNTPS graduate & spin recovery = instructor


= -- For archives and unsub http://mail= .lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

=  

<= /html> ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01CDF372.332CFCA0--