X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 13:17:48 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.163] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6008667 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:32:06 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.163; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.73]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 72E8638000051 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mtd002a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtd002.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.235.197]) by mtaomg-mb02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 033D0E000082 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:31:32 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com Full-name: Sky2high X-Original-Message-ID: <3eb0d.6144d43b.3e22bfb2@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:31:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Purchase Advice LNC2 X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3eb0d.6144d43b.3e22bfb2_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:469884576:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294950f165b43bbe --part1_3eb0d.6144d43b.3e22bfb2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, Spot on. Grayhawk In a message dated 1/12/2013 6:40:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, dfs155@roadrunner.com writes: Ok, listers, here's an original 235 builder/flyer responding to the suggestion that maybe we ought chime in re: Our 235 lawn darts - so here goes. I built mine starting in about '86 - '87 (I think) when Lance was still in LA, before the company moved to Santa Paula and before Don Goetz started trying to squeeze a 320 into the airframe. This was in the days when the build manual was still partly in draft and corrections were arriving in the mail every week. First flight was in '93 done utilizing the then factory service of having an experienced factory pilot (Mike DeHate) do the first flight, explore the envelope and check me out. I'm still flying N235SP and have over 1000 hours on it. (That doesn't sound like a lot since '93 but work kept me out of country a bunch and after retirement to the north country, I don't fly much in the winters up here). I have used the airplane for simply boring holes, learning to fly formation with an ex-Navy carrier fighter pilot, and many of the requisite "$100 dollar hamburger runs". But also on quite a few reasonably long trips such as: Coeur d'Alene, ID (the town to which I retired) to LA, LA to Yellowstone, LA to Redmond, Or, etc. I run a Lyc. O-235-L2C with the Lycoming "helicopter" pistons (moderatly high-compression yielding maybe 120 to 125 HP) and run a two bladed electric MT C/S prop. On long trips, the airplane likes about 9,500 to 10,500 ft and for years I have averaged 164 knots in cruise. On the trips to Jellystone from LA I always carried a passenger (who ran to about 200 lbs), fishing gear and baggage for two guys for the week (limiting the baggage to a total of 50 lbs for structural reasons in the baggage bay). Of course, with that loading, takeoffs took more runway but once on cruise, there is very little difference in the speed or the handling. When I built the airplane, I had a partner who was 6' 1" and weighed about 205 lbs. to accomodate his size, we cut some of the passenger bottom seat-pan away (a factory suggestion), lowering his head by about two inches. His only comment was that he always had to be sure that he put on his headset with the mic towards the inside or it would hit the canopy side. My partner couldn't get his medical so we left the pilot's seat pan alone and I have to do the same too, but it's not a big deal. Like Grayhawk, after flying for a year or so, I arbitrarily moved my preferred cg range slightly forward - reason? - back in the mid '90's, there was also much talk about the airplane's probable spin recovery problems and I wanted as much rudder arm as plssible, just in case. I doubt if that reduces my cruise speed much due to elevator down-force as the airplane requires nose-down trim when going into reflex anyway, so the forward cg abets that requirement. To be factual, I did need to install slightly stronger pitch trim springs to have full trim authority at the flare for landing. My fuel tanks in the wings (11 gal each - header 11 gal as well) are located between the front and rear spars and between the inboard close-out rib and the second rib, which was moved a couple of inches outboard (with blessings from the factory). This was done for several reasons: First and foremost, I didn't like the idea of the inertia of the fuel all the way out to the wingtips as was designed. In a spin, centrifugal force would likely force all the wing fuel toward the tips exacerbating recovery difficulty - hopefully, it can only help inadvertent spin recovery - though I'm fully aware that a pattern stall/spin would be fatal. And not only in a Lancair. Second, with the fuel between the spars, burning off the fuel in the wings has little effect on cg travel. And third, I thought that trying to seal those bloody leading edges would be really tough. Whatever Lancair you are looking at to buy, I certainly recommend picking one that has the oleo nose strut. The original type required a lot of fiddling to keep it from going ape - s**t on landing and tearing up your engine mount. In my opinion they should all have been retrofitted by now. While I'm at it I'll add my 2c worth regarding the Stall, spin thread that's been going on - again! I do practice approach to stall recognition to remind myself what it feels like (my 235 gives a fairly good warning - even if one ignores the mushy controls). Though my Lancair doesn't seem to have a tendency to drop a wing at the stall, I know the envelope and don't push it. I've also always put in a bit of nose-down pitch trim in the pattern, just enough to require a noticable amount of back pressure on the stick, so the nose to drop enough to get my attention if I am distracted. I started doing this while flying in LA where it was common to be number six for landing - and four guys ahead were flying Cessna 150's! Dan Schaefer LNC2 N235SP 78 and still flying! -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --part1_3eb0d.6144d43b.3e22bfb2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dan,
 
Spot on.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 1/12/2013 6:40:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 dfs155@roadrunner.com writes:
= Ok,=20 listers, here's an original 235 builder/flyer responding to the
sugge= stion=20 that maybe we ought chime in re: Our 235 lawn darts - so here=20
goes.

I built mine starting in about '86 - '87 (I think) when = Lance=20 was still in
LA, before the company moved to Santa Paula and before D= on=20 Goetz started
trying to squeeze a 320 into the airframe. This was in = the=20 days when the
build manual was still partly in draft and corrections = were=20 arriving in the
mail every week. First flight was in '93 done utilizi= ng=20 the then factory
service of having an experienced factory pilot (Mike= =20 DeHate) do the first
flight, explore the envelope and check me out. I= 'm=20 still flying N235SP and
have over 1000 hours on it. (That doesn't sou= nd=20 like a lot since '93 but
work kept me out of country a bunch and afte= r=20 retirement to the north
country, I don't fly much in the winters up= =20 here).

I have used the airplane for simply boring holes, learning = to=20 fly formation
with an ex-Navy carrier fighter pilot, and many of the= =20 requisite "$100
dollar hamburger runs". But also on quite a few reaso= nably=20 long trips such
as: Coeur d'Alene, ID (the town to which I retired) t= o LA,=20 LA to
Yellowstone, LA to Redmond, Or, etc. I run a Lyc. O-235-L2C wit= h the=20
Lycoming "helicopter" pistons (moderatly high-compression yielding ma= ybe=20 120
to 125 HP) and run a two bladed electric MT C/S prop. On long tri= ps,=20 the
airplane likes about 9,500 to 10,500 ft and for years I have aver= aged=20 164
knots in cruise. On the trips to Jellystone from LA I always carr= ied a=20
passenger (who ran to about 200 lbs), fishing gear and baggage for tw= o=20 guys
for the week (limiting the baggage to a total of 50 lbs for=20 structural
reasons in the baggage bay). Of course, with that loading,= =20 takeoffs took
more runway but once on cruise, there is very little=20 difference in the speed
or the handling.

When I built the airp= lane,=20 I had a partner who was 6' 1" and weighed about
205 lbs. to accomodat= e his=20 size, we cut some of the passenger bottom
seat-pan away (a factory=20 suggestion), lowering his head by about two inches.
His only comment = was=20 that he always had to be sure that he put on his
headset with the mic= =20 towards the inside or it would hit the canopy side. My
partner couldn= 't=20 get his medical so we left the pilot's seat pan alone and I
have to d= o the=20 same too, but it's not a big deal.

Like Grayhawk, after flying for= a=20 year or so, I arbitrarily moved my
preferred cg range slightly forwar= d -=20 reason? - back in the mid '90's, there
was also much talk about the= =20 airplane's probable spin recovery problems and
I wanted as much rudde= r arm=20 as plssible, just in case. I doubt if that
reduces my cruise speed mu= ch=20 due to elevator down-force as the airplane
requires nose-down trim wh= en=20 going into reflex anyway, so the forward cg
abets that requirement. T= o be=20 factual, I did need to install slightly
stronger pitch trim springs t= o=20 have full trim authority at the flare for
landing.

My fuel tan= ks in=20 the wings (11 gal each - header 11 gal as well) are located
between t= he=20 front and rear spars and between the inboard close-out rib and
the se= cond=20 rib, which was moved a couple of inches outboard (with blessings
from= the=20 factory). This was done for several reasons: First and foremost, I
di= dn't=20 like the idea of the inertia of the fuel all the way out to the
wingt= ips=20 as was designed. In a spin, centrifugal force would likely force
all = the=20 wing fuel toward the tips exacerbating recovery difficulty -
hopefull= y, it=20 can only help inadvertent spin recovery - though I'm fully
aware that= a=20 pattern stall/spin would be fatal. And not only in a Lancair.
Second,= with=20 the fuel between the spars, burning off the fuel in the wings
has lit= tle=20 effect on cg travel. And third, I thought that trying to seal
those b= loody=20 leading edges would be really tough.

Whatever Lancair you are look= ing=20 at to buy, I certainly recommend picking
one that has the oleo nose s= trut.=20 The original type required a lot of
fiddling to keep it from going ap= e -=20 s**t on landing and tearing up your
engine mount. In my opinion they= =20 should all have been retrofitted by now.

While I'm at it I'll add = my 2c=20 worth regarding the Stall, spin thread that's
been going on - again! = I do=20 practice approach to stall recognition to remind
myself what it feels= like=20 (my 235 gives a fairly good warning - even if one
ignores the mushy= =20 controls). Though my Lancair doesn't seem to have a
tendency to drop = a=20 wing at the stall, I know the envelope and don't push it.
I've also a= lways=20 put in a bit of nose-down pitch trim in the pattern, just
enough to= =20 require a noticable amount of back pressure on the stick, so the
nose= to=20 drop enough to get my attention if I am distracted. I started doing
t= his=20 while flying in LA where it was common to be number six for landing - and=20 four guys ahead were flying Cessna 150's!

Dan Schaefer
LNC2&nbs= p;=20   N235SP
78 and still flying!



--
For archives a= nd=20 unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
--part1_3eb0d.6144d43b.3e22bfb2_boundary--