X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 11:19:58 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb01.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.164] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5995989 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 17:45:01 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.164; envelope-from=vtailjeff@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.200]) by imr-mb01.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 5F8711C00015B for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from core-mne001a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mne001.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.107.65]) by mtaomg-db02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id D1647E000087 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:44:25 -0500 (EST) References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CFB8E42E93C48B_28EC_8E367_webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 37276-STANDARD Received: from 12.110.229.82 by webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com (64.12.225.53) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 04 Jan 2013 17:44:25 -0500 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CFB8E42E700FCD-28EC-36E34@webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [12.110.229.82] X-Original-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:44:25 -0500 (EST) x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:498276160:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c850e75b497c68 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8CFB8E42E93C48B_28EC_8E367_webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Great talking to you Tom! Please remember to send me Justin's contact infor= mation.=20 Jeff -----Original Message----- From: N20087 To: lml Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 11:46 am Subject: [LML] Re: stalls Jeff I tried calling you on your cell to discuss this.topic. The call would not = go through. Would you have some time for me on the subject? 540 521 1551 Tom Gardiner Sent from my iPad On Jan 3, 2013, at 6:03 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: Bill, I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying here. Wou= ld you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can call you? Jeff Edwards 324-308-6719 cell -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradburry To: lml Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm Subject: [LML] Re: stalls We are on the same page here, Colyn. =20 You are saying that you should be trainedto fly your airplane and so am I. = The ability to recognize and recoverfrom a stall is taught before a new pi= lot is ever allowed to solo. That abilityis critical. Same with the LIV. = You can not get a plane on the groundwithout stalling it so you are going = to encounter the characteristics of astall every time you land. If that st= arts to happen when you are toohigh, you can die. =20 Bill=20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Coly= n Case Sent: Thursday, January 03, 201311:31 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 Bill,=20 =20 Noyou didn't get it. =20 Youare on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range ofexp= erience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, wingi= ncidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec. It is astatistical= fact that the accident rate among these permutations of pilots andaircraft= doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse per operationalhour t= han airline operation. Notably solo pilots with limited make/modelexperie= nce fare much worse. =20 Justto highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my sta= llcharacteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of the air= planeto break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block raked off the= primerfrom my leading edge to fix it. Similarly, when Len was testing th= efactory specimen of the Columbiahe had to bail out because it wouldn't rec= over from a spin the way theprototype (built to the same specs) did. That= 's how little a changeaffects flight behavior. =20 =20 Youmay be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to execute= andrecover from stalls in any aircraft they fly. However, unless you can= accurately predict that every pilot on this list operating with whateverair= craft, however configured, with no prior experience doing so, willhave a s= afe outcome the first time performing this maneuver alone, then I wouldreco= mmend against provoking all of them to do so. =20 Lookingat the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows up = is thatpilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot better tha= n thosethat don't. That is why I take issue with recommendations to exper= imenton your own. By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but give = us ahand with the safety situation and get trained in this make/model. =20 Colyn =20 OnJan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: No, I got it. I just don=E2=80=99t getall this talk about Lancairs being d= eadly in a stall. It seems you are tryingto scare Lancair drivers into for= egoing stall training. That, in myopinion, will kill more people than lear= ning to fly their planes. Iunderstand the reason for no spins and if you k= now how to recover your planefrom an incipient stall, there should never be= a reason to recover from a spin. But flying a plane that you are afraid to,and have never, stalled is just p= lane dumb! =20 From: Lancair Mailing List[mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn= Case Sent: Thursday, January 03, 20138:33 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 Iguess you didn't get my point... =20 OnJan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Because nobody wants to die alone?? =20 If you are not competent to practicestalls solo in your Lancair, you probab= ly shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo. =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List[mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn= Case Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 20132:04 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: stalls =20 aerodynamically,I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. = Onething it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm all in favor of= stallrecognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in th= eirLancair's solo and doing it.... =20 OnJan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: =20 Whynot? Ifyou never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to recogni= zewhat is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when it = stallsand recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we= stall theairplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungratef= ul criticalsobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you = good tips aboutrecovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, right= wing drop, leftwing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre= stall is the mostimportant. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and = bitch at me and tellsme what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills= me. I advise you to geta good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend t= he best 2 hrs of your lifestalling your airplane and getting to know her. I= t's=20 Ikemaking love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... Sorryabout that but Myold savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes always= toldme the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when= it does itlook at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots and come and la= nd, it hasnever failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, c= hipmunk etc. Myfew cents worth of it. You will live longer. Sent from my iPad On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" wro= te: I have made the decision prior topurchasing to avoid stalls altogether in m= y 360. After reading the stalland stall spin accident information, I just = don't think it's worth therisk. On take-off, I stay in ground effect for t= he half second it takesto make it into the green after wheels up; on landin= g, I approach well abovestall for my flap configuration, and let the speed = bleed off only a few feetabove the threshold. During normal flight, I don'= t even get near atypical slow flight speed. Too many variables in a home b= uilt airplanewith no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where= I think itis, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; p= ossible extrawait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). =20 From: Lancair Mailing List[mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of EdGra= y Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 20139:43 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] stalls Colyn,As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are flying low u= nderthe hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety pilot No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ----------MB_8CFB8E42E93C48B_28EC_8E367_webmailstg-m01.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Great talking to you Tom! P= lease remember to send me Justin's contact information. 

Jeff


-----= Original Message-----
From: N20087 <n20087@yahoo.com>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 11:46 am
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

Jeff

I tried calling you on your cell to discuss this.topic. The call would= not go through. Would you have some time for me on the subject?

540 521 1551

Tom Gardiner

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 3, 2013, at 6:03 PM, vtailjeff@= aol.com wrote:

Bill,

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying here= . Would you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can call y= ou?

Jeff Edwards
324-308-6719 cell


-----= Original Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradb= urry@bellsouth.net>
To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net<= /a>>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

We are on the s= ame page here, Colyn.
 
You are saying = that you should be trained to fly your airplane and so am I.  The ability to recognize and recove= r from a stall is taught before a new pilot is ever allowed to solo.  Th= at ability is critical.  Same with the LIV.  You can not get a plane on the = ground without stalling it so you are going to encounter the characteristics of a stall every time you land.  If that starts to happen when you are too high, you can die.
 
Bill
 
From:= Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] O= n Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January 03, = 2013 11:31 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
Bill, 
 
No you didn't get it.
 
You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range of experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, wi= ng incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec.   It is a statistical fact that the accident rate among these permutations of pilots = and aircraft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse per operation= al hour than airline operation.   Notably solo pilots with limited make/m= odel experience fare much worse.
 
Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of the airpl= ane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block raked off the prim= er from my leading edge to fix it.   Similarly, when Len was testing the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built to the same specs) did.   That's how little a change affects flight behavior.   
 
You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to execute an= d recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly.   However, unless you ca= n accurately predict that every pilot on this list operating with whatever aircraft, however configured,  with no prior experience doing so, will have a safe outcome the first time performing this maneuver alone, then I w= ould recommend against provoking all of them to do so.
 
Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows up is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot better than those that don't.   That is why I take issue with recommendations to experim= ent on your own.   By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but give = us a hand with the safety situation and get trained in this make/model.
 
Colyn
  
On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:


No, I got it.&n= bsp; I just don=E2=80=99t get all this talk about Lancairs being deadly in a stall.  It seems you ar= e trying to scare Lancair drivers into foregoing stall training.  That, in my opinion, will kill more people than learning to fly their planes.  I understand the reason for no spins and if you know how to recover your plan= e from an incipient stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a s= pin.
But flying a pl= ane that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is just plane dumb!
 
From:= Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January 03, = 2013 8:33 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
I guess you didn't get my point...
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:



Because nobody = wants to die alone??
 
If you are not = competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it so= lo.
 
 
From:= Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02,= 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has in common with a Zlin.    O= ne thing it doesn't have is excess control authority.   I'm all in favor = of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it....
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:
 
Why not?
If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when it st= alls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we stall= the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrateful critica= l sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you good tips a= bout recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, lef= t wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the mo= st important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and te= lls me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to = get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your li= fe stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's 
Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy.....
Sorry about that but
My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes always t= old me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when it d= oes it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots and come and land, it= has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk et= c.
My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> wrote:
I have made the= decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.  After reading the st= all and stall spin accident information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half second it tak= es to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well abov= e stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few fee= t above the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built airplan= e with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think= it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible ext= ra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain).
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net= ] On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2= 013 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] stalls=
Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are flying low un= der the hood, I hope you have a well qualified  safety pilot=
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.= com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12 Internal Virus Database is out of date.
 
 
 
=20
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