X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 11:19:58 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm10-vm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.140] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 5996701 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 10:32:37 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.140; envelope-from=charliekohler@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.226.177] by nm10.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 15:32:04 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.169] by tm12.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 15:32:04 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jan 2013 15:32:04 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 520194.14411.bm@omp1025.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 9689 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jan 2013 15:32:04 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DKG7rICkslJpT6mFH0+ozs0EgP1Mxz9zgtZJjmYgdT1RJaPF6CLoErr1Aja5GpgJbo3S5P/Z3GTI4Dp3457SX/HqYhLIJxMFcQQuRXCHoOo4gfdYRDkpjpA7hOKJxAeGCzXvMexX3Pk17KUtWBXafkNlbUHp82dkb8JuFyqjPbE=; X-YMail-OSG: QdtludwVM1mNAoXOgjce3mIuXuW9wT.j38J6w_NaNszXTnP T9GQd3fOINJ12cqRmCSq7y_2EqXftlxoUZS7w9bhJuVZwl8tVQQt5AlIGWv9 lDwZDfDxYpXj0eaogcdvIHNRkf16_6TrE3XaZVpLLHl3cQ31PubeQGSxlBnK iAqQqfKn1m2UeFFjAI9Rsvds6xewJ48qwdVeQv6mHI9z9QBEOirmfjwcAoV1 _QGlBojwVidPlYF3zBdTlxVmpLElJ1gsBI3HmPpIwf2AyAwahjRvn0YYUj0E 4lwr.Uh7qLv_gU2EA5Ri8YvhcaoCL4kB9CZQqISneXtuMb4W0j41sjWhnElz dZHENfdW.2MIBtKTNqaeKzMDErfWoZ9byVWwQbzxZqS6Igf3D3VoSPkCnxDd WkjJ_AEhRvps4ihiFQKzcuTiXHKEm0FsaLmFuo7CXm_IPsXjhoSDsixPNcU1 pybPwSi0K4mVPJue1ZXbZlZGBOQRsG4aAJq1gW5v.K5w2qM7kKQkWw64mbj2 HkQt0.ZjjF37EeOg5jqd7fMVU9.AvbEHyezDSDnnpvewasWoNvCySpBVcB2q E047g6AxA.9kl Received: from [67.8.20.66] by web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 05 Jan 2013 07:32:04 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,SGVyZSBpcyBhIHJlc3BvbnNlIEkgbWFkZSB0byB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCBvbiB0aGUgTE1MIHNldmVyYWwgeWVhcnMgYWdvLiBJIHRoaW5rIGl0IHN0aWxsIGFwcGxpZXMuCsKgCklkb24ndCB0aGluayB3ZSdyZSBsb29raW5nIGF0IHRoZSBzdGFsbCBhd2FyZW5lc3Mgc2l0dWF0aW9uIHdpdGggdGhlIHNhbWUgdmlldy4gCsKgCkluIG1vc3QgYWxsIGNhc2VzIHdoZW4gYW4gYWlyY3JhZnQgZW5jb3VudGVycyBhIHVuaW50ZW50aW9uYWwgc3RhbGwtLWl0IHdpbGwgbm90IGJlIGZyb20gc3RyYWlnaHQgYW5kIGxldmUBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.129.483 References: X-Original-Message-ID: <1357399924.9563.YahooMailNeo@web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> X-Original-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 07:32:04 -0800 (PST) From: Charlie Kohler Reply-To: Charlie Kohler Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="533417561-140582538-1357399924=:9563" --533417561-140582538-1357399924=:9563 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a response I made to this thread on the LML several years ago. I th= ink it still applies.=0A=C2=A0=0AIdon't think we're looking at the stall aw= areness situation with the same view. =0A=C2=A0=0AIn most all cases when an= aircraft encounters a unintentional stall--it will not be from straight an= d level. It will be in a turn of some sort. So the break may help if in a l= eft turn OR it may put you upside down if in a right turn.(Thats for the IV= 's customary right break.)=0A=C2=A0=0ASo the result of the wing drop will h= ave to be corrected back toward straight and level. And that will only be a= ccomplished after reduce the angle of attack and get enough airspeed to mak= e both wings fly. =0AI did a Lancair IV (with no stall strips/) recurrent t= raining on Thursday. And the airplane gave absolutely no buffet until it br= oke. In the full flaps and landing gear configuration it flew to about 67 a= nd abruptly broke to the right. (From level flight) My experience has been = that if the (10 inch/18 inch from fuselage) stall strips would have been in= stalled there would have been a three to five knot buffet warning that woul= d have initiated an earlier recovery. (Non aerobatic Dr. pilot). =C2=A0No b= reak. That warning is what I am after. And I believe it is the turn to fina= l- stall warning- that can save lives. =0AAnd I want it in the flight contr= ols like a stick shaker. Not in an instrument on the panel-- or a bitching = Betty (that I have mentally turned off years ago.)=0A=C2=A0=0ACase in point= . On take off several months ago, a large bird flew up as I was about 10 fe= et off the ground on takeoff. I pulled up aggressively and turned right. I = immediately felt the stall buffet/ and release the back pressure/unloading = the wing and flew out of the situation.=0AFeeling the buffet allowed me to = sense what the wing was doing. I feel the stall strips gave me the input I = needed and saved the day.=0A=C2=A0 I don't know that I'm willing to do any = more testing-- other than the approach to stalls at 10,000 feet. I know wha= t works. And I'm really not interested in doing spins or even trying to tam= e a particular wing break. As I said it's going to break one way or the oth= er with or without strips. I do not think you'll get a (power off) falling = leaf maneuver out of the IV. You can if you have a little power on. I used = to always do accelerated stalls and found I could control the airplane when= it began the roll. By unloading the wing with the elevator and ruddering t= he wings level with a little help from the ailerons. (thanks Guy)=0A=C2=A0 = I do not think the IV is unsafe or unconventional. =0AI don't have the qual= ifications of Len to analyze the stall characteristics. But I do have the e= xperience of teaching stall/spins in T-34's for a number of years in an Air= Force aero club at Hamilton Air Force Base California. Most of my aerobati= cs were self-taught and never really critiqued. I knew what worked and didn= 't. (An example is a IV barrel roll using rudder. It'll split ess out on me= every time.)=0AAnd I have since test flown and trained in well over a hund= red IV's. =0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0I=C2=A0=C2=A0have seen practically every face o= f the Lancair IV. I really think the strips will give the bulk of our IV dr= ivers the warning they need to stay out of trouble. xxxxxx said the other d= ay that he wasn't about to let the airplane get slow unless he was over the= runway.=0AI think that's the attitude of most IV pilots. But who knows whe= n a Cessna 150 will be in front of you on final and you're trying to desper= ately slow down to keep from running over him. Maybe a go around isn't poss= ible. I.e.- engine out/fire/ passenger with a heart attack/maybe you are il= l.=C2=A0=C2=A0=0ACharlie K.=0A=0AThere is a letter from Mark Kirschner who = had retired from Boeing as its chief aerodynamicist--and had built a Lancai= r=C2=A0IVP regarding the stall characteristics of the airplane. I checked t= he airplane/certified it/test flew it/and trained him in Seattle.=C2=A0=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jeff Edwards =0ATo: lml@lancaironline.net =0ASent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 1= 1:30 AM=0ASubject: [LML] Re: stalls=0A=0A=0ANo. I am saying what I said. Pi= lots should get the appropriate training, fly responsibly, and do what is n= ecessary to tame the stall characteristics including installing stall strip= s , and AOA sensors. Remember, loss of control accidents are the leading ca= use of GA accidents. Just practicing stalls in an airplane ill prepared to = do so is not wise IMHO. Many pilots need a thorough review of basic aerodyn= amics. If you want a good course of instruction on this take Rich Stowell' = upset recovery course.=0A=0ABest regards,=0A=0AJeff=0A=0AOn Jan 3, 2013, at= 9:16 AM, "Bill Bradburry" wrote:=0A=0A=0AThen y= ou are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be destroye= d before they kill the people in them.=C2=A0 It seems that Lancair has a pr= oblem on their hands with a very bad design.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=0A>_____________= ___________________=0A>=0A>From:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironl= ine.net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com=0A>Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013= 9:05 AM=0A>To: lml@lancaironline.net=0A>Subject: [LML] Re: stalls=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV series aircraft due the= number of fatal accidents associated with stall training and testing in a = IV series, including a number of test pilots and flight instructors.=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>Jeff=0A>=0A>Sent from my iPad=0A>=0A>On Jan 2, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Bi= ll Bradburry" wrote:=0A>Because nobody wants to = die alone??=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>If you are not competent to practice stalls solo= in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo.=0A>>=C2= =A0=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>=0A>>________________________________=0A>>=0A>>From:Lanc= air Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case=0A>= >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM=0A>>To: lml@lancaironline.net=0A= >>Subject: [LML] Re: stalls=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>aerodynamically, I don't know wh= at =C2=A0a Lancair has in common with a Zlin. =C2=A0 =C2=A0One thing it doe= sn't have is excess control authority. =C2=A0 I'm all in favor of stall rec= ognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lanca= ir's solo and doing it....=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andre= s Katz wrote:=0A>>=C2=A0=0A>>Why not?=0A>>If you never stall the airplane w= hen it happens you won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to reac= t. Learning what your airplane does when it stalls and recovering from it i= s essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple t= imes, at low altitude and in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will la= ugh at you when you screw up but will give you good tips about recovering f= rom it. Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop,= bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the most importa= nt. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me = what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get= a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your l= ife stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's=C2=A0=0A>>Ike maki= ng love to your wife and knowing when she is happy.....=0A>>Sorry about tha= t but=0A>>My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airpl= anes always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane= , learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 =C2=A0kno= ts and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, J= ungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.=0A>>My few cents worth of it. You will live= longer.=0A>>=0A>>Sent from my iPad=0A>>=0A>>On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "D= avid M. Powell CRFA" wrote:=0A>>I have made the decisi= on prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.=C2=A0 After re= ading the stall and stall spin accident information, I just don't think it'= s worth the risk.=C2=A0 On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half s= econd it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I app= roach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed o= ff only a few feet above the threshold.=C2=A0 During normal flight, I don't= even get near a typical slow flight speed.=C2=A0 Too many variables in a h= ome built airplane with no precise envelope,=C2=A0a header tank that is PRO= BABLY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge= is stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heav= y rain).=0A>>>=C2=A0=0A>>>=0A>>>________________________________=0A>>>=0A>>= >From:Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed G= ray=0A>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM=0A>>>To: lml@lancaironline= .net=0A>>>Subject: [LML] stalls=0A>>>Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN= THE PATTERN.=C2=A0 If you are flying low under the hood, I hope you have a= well qualified =C2=A0safety pilot=0A>>>No virus found in this message.=0A>= >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/=0A>>>Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Da= tabase: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12=0A>>>Internal Virus Database is = out of date.=0A>>=C2=A0 --533417561-140582538-1357399924=:9563 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is a response I made to this thread on the LML = several years ago. I think it still applies.
 
I don't think we're looking at the stall awareness si= tuation with the same view.
 
In most all cases when an aircraft encounters a unint= entional stall--it will not be from straight and level. It will be in a tur= n of some sort. So the break may help if in a left turn OR it may put you u= pside down if in a right turn.(Thats for the IV's customary right break.)
 
So the result of the wing drop will have to be correc= ted back toward straight and level. And that will only be accomplished afte= r reduce the angle of attack and get enough airspeed to make both wings fly= .
I did a Lancair IV (with no stall strips/) recurrent = training on Thursday. And the airplane gave absolutely no buffet until it b= roke. In the full flaps and landing gear configuration it flew to about 67 = and abruptly broke to the right. (From level flight) My experience has been= that if the (10 inch/18 inch from fuselage) stall strips would have been i= nstalled there would have been a three to five knot buffet warning that wou= ld have initiated an earlier recovery. (Non aerobatic Dr. pilot).  No = break. That warning is what I am after. And I believe it is the turn to fin= al- stall warning- that can save lives.
And I want it in the flight controls like a stick sha= ker. Not in an instrument on the panel-- or a bitching Betty (that I have m= entally turned off years ago.)
 
Case in point. On take off several months ago, a larg= e bird flew up as I was about 10 feet off the ground on takeoff. I pulled u= p aggressively and turned right. I immediately felt the stall buffet/ and r= elease the back pressure/unloading the wing and flew out of the situation.<= o:p>
Feeling the buffet allowed me to sense what the wing = was doing. I feel the stall strips gave me the input I needed and saved the= day.
  I don't know that I'm wi= lling to do any more testing-- other than the approach to stalls at 10,000 = feet. I know what works. And I'm really not interested in doing spins or ev= en trying to tame a particular wing break. As I said it's going to break on= e way or the other with or without strips. I do not think you'll get a (pow= er off) falling leaf maneuver out of the IV. You can if you have a little p= ower on. I used to always do accelerated stalls and found I could control t= he airplane when it began the roll. By unloading the wing with the elevator= and ruddering the wings level with a little help from the ailerons. (thank= s Guy)
  I do not think the IV is= unsafe or unconventional.
I don't have the qualifications of Len to analyze the= stall characteristics. But I do have the experience of teaching stall/spin= s in T-34's for a number of years in an Air Force aero club at Hamilton Air= Force Base California. Most of my aerobatics were self-taught and never re= ally critiqued. I knew what worked and didn't. (An example is a IV barrel r= oll using rudder. It'll split ess out on me every time.)
And I have since test flown and trained in well over = a hundred IV's.
 
 I  have seen pr= actically every face of the Lancair IV. I really think the strips will give= the bulk of our IV drivers the warning they need to stay out of trouble. x= xxxxx said the other day that he wasn't about to let the airplane get slow = unless he was over the runway.
I think that's the attitude of = most IV pilots. But who knows when a Cessna 150 will be in front of you on = final and you're trying to desperately slow down to keep from running over = him. Maybe a go around isn't possible. I.e.- engine out/fire/ passenger wit= h a heart attack/maybe you are ill. <= EM> 
Charlie K.
 
There is a letter from Mark Kirschner who had re= tired from Boeing as its chief aerodynamicist--and had built a Lancair = ;IVP regarding the stall characteristics of the airplane. I checked the air= plane/certified it/test flew it/and trained him in Seattle. 
 
 

From:= Jeff Edwards <vtailjeff@aol.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 11:30 AM
<= B>Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

No. I am saying what I said. Pilots should get the appropriate trainin= g, fly responsibly, and do what is necessary to tame the stall characterist= ics including installing stall strips , and AOA sensors. Remember, loss of = control accidents are the leading cause of GA accidents. Just practicing st= alls in an airplane ill prepared to do so is not wise IMHO. Many pilots nee= d a thorough review of basic aerodynamics. If you want a good course of ins= truction on this take Rich Stowell' upset recovery course.

Best regards,

Jeff

On Jan 3, 2013, at 9:16 AM, "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

<= /DIV>
Then you= are saying that those IV aircraft are death traps and should be destroyed = before they kill the people in them.  It seems that Lancair has a prob= lem on their hands with a very bad design.
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 9:05 AM
To: lml@= lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
Lobo does not encourage stall practice in IV series = aircraft due the number of fatal accidents associated with stall training a= nd testing in a IV series, including a number of test pilots and flight ins= tructors.
 
Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at= 5:16 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <= bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Because = nobody wants to die alone??
 
If you a= re not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shou= ldn=E2=80=99t be flying it solo.
 
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, = 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls
 
aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair h= as in common with a Zlin.    One thing it doesn't have is excess = control authority.   I'm all in favor of stall recognition training bu= t I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doing = it....
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:
 
Why not?
If you never stall the airplane when it happens you = won't be able to recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what yo= ur airplane does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe= flight. In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitu= de and in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you= screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every airpl= ane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking etc. learn= ing what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My ZLIN 50 is s= o nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what I need to do (= lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a good instructor = and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your life stalling your a= irplane and getting to know her. It's 
Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is= happy.....
Sorry about that but
My old savvy instructor when checking me out in sing= le seat airplanes always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall= the airplane, learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add= 10  knots and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safel= y ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc.
My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.
<= BR>Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at= 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superd= mp@sonic.net> wrote:
I have m= ade the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.&= nbsp; After reading the stall and stall spin accident information, I just d= on't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground effect = for the half second it takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on = landing, I approach well above stall for my flap configuration, and let the= speed bleed off only a few feet above the threshold.  During normal f= light, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too many va= riables in a home built airplane with no precise envelope, a header ta= nk that is PROBABLY where I think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pound= s if the gauge is stuck; possible extra wait in the tail area (water retent= ion after heavy rain).
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [ma= ilto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Ed Gray
Sent:<= /B> Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.n= et
Subject: [LML] st= alls
Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.&= nbsp; If you are flying low under the hood, I hope you have a well qualifie= d  safety pilot
http://www.avg.com/
Versio= n: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: 12/23/12
Inte= rnal Virus Database is out of date.
<= /DIV>
 


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