X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:58:07 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5995872 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:29:56 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.70; envelope-from=colyncase@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=dKc4UEO6kMjh3G14cT8mmoPH8PE1IYtR+4LhkzHAeJBkleIv3QqWrhwB1uX6fUUa; h=Received:From:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:Message-Id:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [70.105.250.129] (helo=[192.168.1.34]) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1TrEpM-0007aF-8X for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:29:21 -0500 From: Colyn Case Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8-1070638041 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: stalls X-Original-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 16:29:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: X-Original-Message-Id: <27BE7F66-8DB4-4116-9BD6-D6610AC5A872@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-ELNK-Trace: 63d5d3452847f8b1d6dd28457998182d7e972de0d01da940801d0451de36698f86f76294b17c3b7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 70.105.250.129 --Apple-Mail-8-1070638041 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Jeff's number is actually 314-308-6719 On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:45 PM, N20087 wrote: Jeff I tried calling you on your cell to discuss this.topic. The call would = not go through. Would you have some time for me on the subject? 540 521 1551 Tom Gardiner Sent from my iPad On Jan 3, 2013, at 6:03 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: > Bill, >=20 > I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying = here. Would you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can = call you? >=20 > Jeff Edwards > 324-308-6719 cell >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Bradburry > To: lml > Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls >=20 > We are on the same page here, Colyn. > =20 > You are saying that you should be trained to fly your airplane and so = am I. The ability to recognize and recover from a stall is taught = before a new pilot is ever allowed to solo. That ability is critical. = Same with the LIV. You can not get a plane on the ground without = stalling it so you are going to encounter the characteristics of a stall = every time you land. If that starts to happen when you are too high, = you can die. > =20 > Bill > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 11:31 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls > =20 > Bill,=20 > =20 > No you didn't get it. > =20 > You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range = of experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of = CG's, wing incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec. It = is a statistical fact that the accident rate among these permutations of = pilots and aircraft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse = per operational hour than airline operation. Notably solo pilots with = limited make/model experience fare much worse. > =20 > Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing = my stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition = of the airplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block = raked off the primer from my leading edge to fix it. Similarly, when = Len was testing the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out = because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built to = the same specs) did. That's how little a change affects flight = behavior. =20 > =20 > You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to = execute and recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly. However, = unless you can accurately predict that every pilot on this list = operating with whatever aircraft, however configured, with no prior = experience doing so, will have a safe outcome the first time performing = this maneuver alone, then I would recommend against provoking all of = them to do so. > =20 > Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that = shows up is that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a = lot better than those that don't. That is why I take issue with = recommendations to experiment on your own. By all means, be familiar = with your airplane, but give us a hand with the safety situation and get = trained in this make/model. > =20 > Colyn > =20 > On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >=20 >=20 > No, I got it. I just don=92t get all this talk about Lancairs being = deadly in a stall. It seems you are trying to scare Lancair drivers = into foregoing stall training. That, in my opinion, will kill more = people than learning to fly their planes. I understand the reason for = no spins and if you know how to recover your plane from an incipient = stall, there should never be a reason to recover from a spin. > But flying a plane that you are afraid to, and have never, stalled is = just plane dumb! > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 8:33 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls > =20 > I guess you didn't get my point... > =20 > On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Because nobody wants to die alone?? > =20 > If you are not competent to practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you = probably shouldn=92t be flying it solo. > =20 > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Colyn Case > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 2:04 PM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: stalls > =20 > aerodynamically, I don't know what a Lancair has in common with a = Zlin. One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority. I'm = all in favor of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate = everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it.... > =20 > On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote: > =20 > Why not? > If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to = recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane = does when it stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. = In flying Acro we stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and = in front of ungrateful critical sobs that will laugh at you when you = screw up but will give you good tips about recovering from it. Every = airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, left wing drop, bucking = etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the most important. My = ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and tells me what = I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you to get a = good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your = life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. It's=20 > Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is happy..... > Sorry about that but > My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes = always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, = learn when it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10 knots = and come and land, it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, = Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk etc. > My few cents worth of it. You will live longer. >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" = wrote: >> I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls = altogether in my 360. After reading the stall and stall spin accident = information, I just don't think it's worth the risk. On take-off, I = stay in ground effect for the half second it takes to make it into the = green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well above stall for my = flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few feet above = the threshold. During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical = slow flight speed. Too many variables in a home built airplane with no = precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I think it is, = but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible = extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy rain). >> =20 >> From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf = Of Ed Gray >> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2013 9:43 PM >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Subject: [LML] stalls >> Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN. If you are = flying low under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified safety = pilot >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: = 12/23/12 >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >=20 > =20 > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail-8-1070638041 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Jeff

I tried calling = you on your cell to discuss this.topic. The call would not go through. = Would you have some time for me on the = subject?

540 521 = 1551

Tom Gardiner

Sent from my = iPad

On Jan 3, 2013, at 6:03 PM, vtailjeff@aol.com = wrote:

Bill,

I respectfully disagree with just about everything you are saying = here. Would you please contact me offline or give me you number so I can = call you?

Jeff Edwards
324-308-6719 cell


-----Orig= inal Message-----
From: Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net><= br> To: lml <lml@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:34 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: stalls

We are on the same page here, = Colyn.
 
You are saying that you should be = trained to fly your airplane and so am I.  The ability to recognize and = recover from a stall is taught before a new pilot is ever allowed to solo.  = That ability is critical.  Same with the LIV.  You can not get a plane on = the ground without stalling it so you are going to encounter the characteristics of = a stall every time you land.  If that starts to happen when you are = too high, you can die.
 
Bill
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Colyn = Case
Sent: Thursday, January = 03, 2013 11:31 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = stalls
 
Bill, 
 
No you didn't get it.
 
You are on a public mailing list comprised of pilots with a wide range of experience and skills and owners of airplanes with a wide range of CG's, = wing incidences, airfoil shapes closer or farther from spec.   It is a statistical fact that the accident rate among these permutations of = pilots and aircraft doing whatever operations they do is 300 times worse per = operational hour than airline operation.   Notably solo pilots with limited = make/model experience fare much worse.
 
Just to highlight the variance in airframes, when Len Fox was testing my = stall characteristics, he became so annoyed with the pre-disposition of the = airplane to break to the right that he grabbed a 2' sanding block raked off the = primer from my leading edge to fix it.   Similarly, when Len was testing = the factory specimen of the Columbia he had to bail out because it wouldn't recover from a spin the way the prototype (built to the same specs) did.   That's how little a = change affects flight behavior.   
 
You may be on high moral ground saying that pilots should be able to execute = and recover from stalls in any aircraft they fly.   However, unless you = can accurately predict that every pilot on this list operating with whatever aircraft, however configured,  with no prior experience doing so, = will have a safe outcome the first time performing this maneuver alone, then = I would recommend against provoking all of them to do so.
 
Looking at the Lancair safety situation, the number one thing that shows up is = that pilots who get the full training syllabus are doing a lot better than = those that don't.   That is why I take issue with recommendations to = experiment on your own.   By all means, be familiar with your airplane, but = give us a hand with the safety situation and get trained in this = make/model.
 
Colyn
  
On Jan 3, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote:


No, I got it.  I just don=92t = get all this talk about Lancairs being deadly in a stall.  It seems you = are trying to scare Lancair drivers into foregoing stall training.  That, in = my opinion, will kill more people than learning to fly their planes.  = I understand the reason for no spins and if you know how to recover your = plane from an incipient stall, there should never be a reason to recover from = a spin.
But flying a plane that you are = afraid to, and have never, stalled is just plane dumb!
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Thursday, January = 03, 2013 8:33 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = stalls
 
I guess you didn't get my point...
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:



Because nobody wants to die = alone??
 
If you are not competent to = practice stalls solo in your Lancair, you probably shouldn=92t be flying it = solo.
 
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Colyn Case
Sent: Wednesday, January = 02, 2013 2:04 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = stalls
 
aerodynamically, I don't know what  a Lancair has in common with a Zlin.   =  One thing it doesn't have is excess control authority.   I'm all in = favor of stall recognition training but I wouldn't advocate everyone going out in their Lancair's solo and doing it....
 
On Jan 2, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Andres Katz wrote:
 
Why not?
If you never stall the airplane when it happens you won't be able to = recognize what is doing and how to react. Learning what your airplane does when it = stalls and recovering from it is essential to safe flight. In flying Acro we = stall the airplane multiple times, at low altitude and in front of ungrateful = critical sobs that will laugh at you when you screw up but will give you good = tips about recovering from it. Every airplane stalls differently, right wing drop, = left wing drop, bucking etc. learning what the airplane does pre stall is the = most important. My ZLIN 50 is so nice it begins to buckle and bitch at me and = tells me what I need to do (lower the stick) before it kills me. I advise you = to get a good instructor and go to 10,000 feet and spend the best 2 hrs of your = life stalling your airplane and getting to know her. = It's 
Ike making love to your wife and knowing when she is = happy.....
Sorry about that but
My old savvy instructor when checking me out in single seat airplanes = always told me the same, go out to a safe altitude, stall the airplane, learn when = it does it look at the speed when it happens, add 10  knots and come and land, = it has never failed to get me down safely ie yak55, Jungmeister, ZLIN, chipmunk = etc.
My few cents worth of it. You will live longer.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2013, at 7:15 AM, "David M. Powell CRFA" <superdmp@sonic.net> = wrote:
I have made the decision prior to purchasing to avoid stalls altogether in my 360.  After reading the = stall and stall spin accident information, I just don't think it's worth the risk.  On take-off, I stay in ground effect for the half second it = takes to make it into the green after wheels up; on landing, I approach well = above stall for my flap configuration, and let the speed bleed off only a few = feet above the threshold.  During normal flight, I don't even get near a typical slow flight speed.  Too many variables in a home built = airplane with no precise envelope, a header tank that is PROBABLY where I = think it is, but could be off by 30 or 40 pounds if the gauge is stuck; possible = extra wait in the tail area (water retention after heavy = rain).
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Tuesday, January = 01, 2013 9:43 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] = stalls
Colyn, As I said, AVOID STEEP TURNS IN THE PATTERN.  If you are flying low = under the hood, I hope you have a well qualified  safety = pilot
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5980 - Release Date: = 12/23/12
Internal Virus Database is out of date.
 
 
 

= --Apple-Mail-8-1070638041--