X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:51:33 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-da03.mx.aol.com ([205.188.105.145] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.6) with ESMTP id 5655799 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:41:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.105.145; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-ma02.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-ma02.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.9]) by imr-da03.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id q6HFeDN7012026 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:40:13 -0400 Received: from core-mtd004c.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mtd004.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.235.205]) by mtaomg-ma02.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id 1334FE00008B for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:40:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <1908d.62c836fe.3d36e15c@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Experimental TCAS system? X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1908d.62c836fe.3d36e15c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [67.175.156.123] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 1:2:441164992:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 1 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d29095005875d2390 --part1_1908d.62c836fe.3d36e15c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, While you might tune in to someone else's reception of traffic in his puck, it is not going to be accurate for you since you have not broadcast your own information (ADS-B Out). It is foolish to believe you'll get accurate traffic without transmitting your own information. The reason ADS-B is a good thing is very accurate position data (WAAS, altitude via geodesic model, etc.) is transmitted and updated at least once every 2 seconds (or less). That's better than radar and current transponder info. Wikipedia is not the most accurate source. See the AIM or any NEXGEN documentation. Scott Krueger In a message dated 7/17/2012 10:16:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, r.rickard@rcginc-us.com writes: Look up ADS-B on Wikipedia. The system works by communicating directly with other ADS B units for traffic as well as displaying the "system" traffic and other information. An excerpt: Safety ADS-B makes flying significantly safer for the aviation community. When using this system both pilots and controllers will see the same radar picture. With past systems such as the Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) aircraft could only see other aircraft equipped with the same technology. With ADS-B, information is sent to aircraft using ADS-B In, which displays all aircraft in the area, even those not equipped with ADS-B technology. [_edit_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Automatic_dependent_surveillance-broadcast&action=edit§ion=4) ]New services 1. Traffic - When using an ADS-B In system a pilot is able to pull up traffic information on surrounding aircraft. This information includes altitude, heading, speed, and distance to aircraft. 2. Weather - Aircraft equipped with UAT ADS-B In technology will be able to receive weather reports, and weather radar through Flight Information Service-Broadcast (FIS-B). 3. Terrain - ADS-B In technology, broadcasts a terrain overlay for pilots to view in the cockpit. 4. Flight information - Not to be confused with FIS-B, Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) transmits readable flight information such as TFRs and NOTAMs to aircraft equipped with either UAT or 1090 Squitter ADS-B systems. Recommend getting smart on this (and finding out where the current weather data is available, it's not conus wide yet) before spending a bucket of cash on a "legacy" system. Bob R On Jul 16, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Colyn Case <_colyncase@earthlink.net_ (mailto:colyncase@earthlink.net) > wrote: Scott, Do I understand correctly that ADS-B traffic information comes via a ground station somewhere? How does that actually perform when you are in a valley somewhere? I used to have TIS-B. I loved it when and where it worked but there were enough discrepancies + the fact that you had to have line of sight to the Radar facility that I was really enthusiastic about getting my ryan 9900BX. The very best thing about TIS-B is that it showed me how much traffic I wasn't seeing. However, the delay and coverage issues are real. One incident I had, I was at the range limit of the Sacramento facility when I saw a blip at less than two miles 10 O'clock. I looked up and there was a mooney headed straight at me. I dove to the right and no sooner than he had passed my tail, he disappeared off the screen. If I had been a mile further south I never would have seen him. Another incident: as I was going into Palo Alto I had several targets coming up at me. One was 12 O'clock and reported as 300' below me and climbing. I was about to climb when I spotted it already above me. That is where the delay was really a problem. Dico, IMO in a IVP you will be very happy to have an active system like the avidyne TAS 600 or 605. The former is only $8490 and you can install it yourself. The latter list is a little over $10,000. (You can probably find it cheaper....or you can find someone who is gaga over ADS-B and make them an offer....) You'll find it works much more reliably, regardless of geography and doesn't have the delay of going through a ground station. The 600 gives you coverage up to 18,500 above which you have radar separation because you will be IFR. _http://www.avidyne.com/products/tas600/index.asp_ (http://www.avidyne.com/products/tas600/index.asp) _http://www.avidyne.com/downloads/brochures/AV645_Retail_PL.pdf_ (http://www.avidyne.com/downloads/brochures/AV645_Retail_PL.pdf) Colyn On Jul 16, 2012, at 10:09 AM, _Sky2high@aol.com_ (mailto:Sky2high@aol.com) wrote: Dico, For the present and future, consider ADS-B. Here is an example: _http://skyvisionxtreme.com/_ (http://skyvisionxtreme.com/) Scott Krueger In a message dated 7/16/2012 7:13:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _dico@internetworks.ca_ (mailto:dico@internetworks.ca) writes: Hello All, Is there a good TCAS system available for our experimental airplanes. I really like the skywatch systems with the 2 antennas.. however with the prices $10k - $15k, its pretty crazy high. The Zaon systems are a bit to far on the other end of the scale and have deadspots. Does anyone know of other good systems -- or if systems for experimental planes are being developed? Or perhaps were we could get one from a written off Cirrus or something that had a system? Thanks, Dico = --part1_1908d.62c836fe.3d36e15c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
 
While you might tune in to someone else's reception of traffic in his = puck,=20 it is not going to be accurate for you since you have not broadcast your ow= n=20 information (ADS-B Out).  It is foolish to believe you'll get=20 accurate traffic without transmitting your own information.  The= =20 reason ADS-B is a good thing is very accurate position data (WAAS, alt= itude=20 via geodesic model, etc.) is transmitted and updated at least once every 2= =20 seconds (or less).  That's better than radar and current transponder= =20 info. Wikipedia is not the most accurate source.  See the AIM or = any=20 NEXGEN documentation.
 
Scott Krueger
 
In a message dated 7/17/2012 10:16:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 r.rickard@rcginc-us.com writes:
=
Look up ADS-B on Wikipedia.  The system works by communicating= =20 directly with other ADS B units for traffic as well as displaying the "sy= stem"=20 traffic and other information.  An excerpt:


Safety

ADS-B makes flying significantly saf= er for=20 the aviation community. When using this system both pilots and controller= s=20 will see the same radar picture. With past systems such as the Traffic Al= ert=20 and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) aircraft could only see other aircr= aft=20 equipped with the same technology. With ADS-B, information is sent to air= craft=20 using ADS-B In, which displays all aircraft in the area, even those not= =20 equipped with ADS-B technology.

[edit]New=20 services
  • Traffic - When using an ADS-B In sys= tem a=20 pilot is able to pull up traffic information on surrounding aircraft. T= his=20 information includes altitude, heading, speed, and distance to aircraft= .=20
  • Weather - Aircraft equipped with UAT= ADS-B=20 In technology will be able to receive weather reports, and weather rada= r=20 through Flight Information Service-Broadcast (FIS-B).=20
  • Terrain - ADS-B In technology, broad= casts a=20 terrain overlay for pilots to view in the cockpit.=20
  • Flight information - Not to be confu= sed=20 with FIS-B, Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) transmits rea= dable=20 flight information such as TFRs and NOTAMs to aircraft equipped with ei= ther=20 UAT or 1090 Squitter ADS-B systems.

    • Recommend getting smart on this (and finding out where the current= =20 weather data is available, it's not conus wide yet) before spending a buc= ket=20 of cash on a "legacy" system.

    Bob R


    On Jul 16, 2012, at 9:23 AM, Colyn Case <colyncase@earthlink.net>= =20 wrote:

    Scott,=20

    Do I understand correctly that ADS-B traffic information comes via= a=20 ground station somewhere?    How does that actually perform w= hen=20 you are in a valley somewhere?

    I used to have TIS-B.  I loved it when and where it worked bu= t=20 there were enough discrepancies + the fact that you had to have line of= =20 sight to the Radar facility that I was really enthusiastic about gettin= g my=20 ryan 9900BX.   The very best thing about TIS-B is that it showed m= e how=20 much traffic I wasn't seeing.   However, the delay and coverage is= sues=20 are real.    One incident I had, I was at the range limit of = the=20 Sacramento facility when I saw a blip at less than two miles 10 O'clock= .=20   I looked up and there was a mooney headed straight at me.  = I=20 dove to the right and no sooner than he had passed my tail, he disappea= red=20 off the screen.   If I had been a mile further south I never would= have=20 seen him.   Another incident: as I was going into Palo Alto I had= =20 several targets coming up at me.  One was 12 O'clock and reported = as=20 300' below me and climbing.   I was about to climb when I spotted = it=20 already above me.  That is where the delay was really a problem.

    Dico,

    IMO in a IVP you will be very happy to have an active system like = the=20 avidyne TAS 600 or 605.   The former is only $8490 and you can ins= tall=20 it yourself.   The latter list is a little over $10,000.  (Yo= u can=20 probably find it cheaper....or you can find someone who is gaga over AD= S-B=20 and make them an offer....)   You'll find it works much more relia= bly,=20  regardless of geography and doesn't have the delay of going throu= gh a=20 ground station.
    The 600 gives you coverage up to 18,500 above which you have radar= =20 separation because you will be IFR.


    Colyn


    On Jul 16, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Sky2high@aol.com wrote:
    <= FONT=20 color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>
    Dico,
     
    For the present and future, consider ADS-B.
     
    Here is an example:
     
    http://skyvisionxtreme.com/
     
    Scott Krueger
     
    In a message dated 7/16/2012 7:13:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time, <= A=20 title=3Dmailto:dico@internetworks.ca=20 href=3D"mailto:dico@internetworks.ca">dico@internetworks.ca writes:=
    Hello All,

    Is there a good TCAS system available = for our=20 experimental airplanes.  I really like the skywatch systems with= the=20 2 antennas.. however with the prices $10k - $15k, its pretty crazy=20 high.  The Zaon systems are a bit to far on the other end of the= =20 scale and have deadspots.  Does anyone know of other good system= s --=20 or if systems for experimental planes are being developed?  Or= =20 perhaps were we could get one from a written off Cirrus or something = that=20 had a=20 system?

    Thanks,

    Dico
    =
    =3D --part1_1908d.62c836fe.3d36e15c_boundary--