X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:22:39 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imr-mb02.mx.aol.com ([64.12.207.163] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with ESMTP id 5302885 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:45:26 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.207.163; envelope-from=Sky2high@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.51.201]) by imr-mb02.mx.aol.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id pBDFibf4012258 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:44:38 -0500 Received: from core-mte003a.r1000.mail.aol.com (core-mte003.r1000.mail.aol.com [172.29.236.73]) by mtaomg-db03.r1000.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id A2265E00008C for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:44:36 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <87bf.5c25cf66.3c18cce4@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:44:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Electronic Ignition System Application X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_87bf.5c25cf66.3c18cce4_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 9.6 sub 168 X-Originating-IP: [24.1.9.48] x-aol-global-disposition: G X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:491122880:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c94ee772e460c2 --part1_87bf.5c25cf66.3c18cce4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, Yes, part of the problem is induction/mixture differences caused by the throttle plate position. I.E. WOT may be a quite different distribution than at partial throttle. Uh, switch over to injection. Then you only have to deal with injector engine position locations resulting in differences in atomization of the fuel because of variable upper cowl air flow/pressure. Scott In a message dated 12/13/2011 9:01:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes: Scott, "....., not to mention the induction system limitations inherent carbureted engines." Now you're on to something.. I fear my not-so-ideal mixture distribution would the limiting factor even with EI. Chris Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std _www.N91CZ.net_ (http://www.n91cz.net/) From: "Sky2high@aol.com" To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:07 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Electronic Ignition System Application Brent, Nice. Here is what I liked about ignition systems I have used: 1. Magnetos: Uh, I couldn't think of any.... 2. LASAR: Wiring from magneto body was thru an 8" pigtail with high quality connectors used in the harness. This eliminates any problems from vibration in connectors hard mounted to the device(s) on the engine. 3. Plasma III dual system: a. interconnected electronics so that if one system failed, the other would compensate for the timing difference when operating on only one plug. b. Display of fundamental parameters (timing delivered by each half, RPM, MAP) so that anomalies may be noted. c. Robust crank position sensor. d. Ability to use large gap Iridium plugs. e. Longer, high energy spark to greater ensure the start of every combustion event. f. The ability to affect the timing based on the Compression Ratio. 4. P-Mags Uh, haven't used those yet. Of course, it would be even more interesting to address those engines that are supercharged or turbocharged, not to mention the induction system limitations inherent carbureted engines. Scott Krueger Getting a lot from the little engine that could. In a message dated 12/12/2011 6:53:19 A.M. Central Standard Time, brent@regandesigns.com writes: A while ago I was approached by Monty Barrett of BPA to develop and ignition system for the 9 cylinder M14 radial engine. The magnetos for these engines were out of production and unreliable. We applied our experience designing certified aerospace electronics and came up with a magneto replacement system with a Timing Controller that featured an internal poly-phase alternator, manifold pressure sensor, independent High-Q magnetic flux sensors and dual microprocessors with cascading redundancy. Everything is packaged in a billet machined, O-ring sealed MIL-Spec, water and dust proof anodized housing. The Timing Controller is coupled to independent "Coil Near Plug" high energy Smart Coils that deliver a measured 80+mJ of energy to the spark plasma. The entire system is rated to 125 degrees C operating temperature (257 degF), 10G sign-on-random vibration, direct and indirect lightning effects as well as a host of other DO160F test requirements. While we were designing this system it occurred to me that I would like a couple of these on my IV-P, so we designed it so it could accommodate 6 or 9 cylinder engines. The only difference being the internal sensor ratio and firmware. The system components have passed qualification testing and the 9 cylinder system is currently on the BPA dynamometer undergoing performance mapping and endurance testing. This is where we develop the advance parameters for RPM and manifold pressure. It really isn't practical to attempt to develop these advance curves without a dynamometer. Monty at BPA is currently booking orders for the 9 cylinder M14 system. The problem with the 6 cylinder "market" is that there are many variables and each significant variant of manufacturer, induction system and compression ratio needs to be dynomometer qualified. So, to solve this problem Monty will be offering a significant discount on the ignition system to select 6 cylinder customers who have BPA perform their overhaul and consent to having Monty performance map their engine after the post overhaul dyanamometer run-in. The reason for the dyno testing is that it is not a good idea to just make a guess at the correct timing based on RPM and manifold pressure and then go fly. That would be like buying a suit out of a catalog. A good outcome is unlikely. The attached picture shows the Timing Controller. It replaces the magneto and contains the poly phase alternator, electronics and manifold pressure sensor. The MIL-Spec connector is the interface to the individual coils. The red cap covers the -4 JIC threaded fitting for the manifold pressure connection. Under the blue cap are the firmware update connector and integral static timing light. There is NO separate "Brain Box" to deal with. The system is not available for 4 cylinder engines at this time. If you are interested, contact BPA http://www.bpaengines.com Regards Brent Regan -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html --part1_87bf.5c25cf66.3c18cce4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
 
Yes, part of the problem is induction/mixture differences ca= used=20 by the throttle plate position.  I.E. WOT may be a quite differen= t=20 distribution than at partial throttle.
 
Uh, switch over to injection.  Then you only have to deal wi= th=20 injector engine position locations resulting in differences = in=20 atomization of the fuel because of variable upper cowl air flow/pressure.
 
Scott
 
In a message dated 12/13/2011 9:01:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes:
=
Scott,
"....., not to mention the induction=20 system limitations inherent carbureted engines."
Now you're on to= =20 something..
I fear my not= -so-ideal mixture distribution would the limiti= ng=20 factor even with EI.
Chris
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net

From: "Sky2high@aol.com"=20 <Sky2high@aol.com>
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Sent:=20 Monday, December 12, 2011 10:07 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Electronic Igni= tion=20 System Application

Brent,
 
Nice.  Here is what I liked about ignition systems I have=20 used:
 
1. Magnetos:
Uh, I couldn't think of any....
 
2. LASAR:
Wiring from magneto body was thru an 8" pigtail with = high=20 quality connectors used in the harness.  This eliminates any problem= s=20 from vibration in connectors hard mounted to the device(s) on the=20 engine.
 
3. Plasma III dual system:
a. interconnected electronics so that if one system failed, the othe= r=20 would compensate for the timing difference when operating on only on= e=20 plug.
b. Display of fundamental parameters (timing delivered by = each=20 half, RPM, MAP) so that anomalies may be noted.
c. Robust crank position sensor.
d. Ability to use large gap Iridium plugs.
e. Longer, high energy spark to greater ensure the start of every=20 combustion event.
f. The ability to affect the timing based on the Compression Ratio.<= /DIV>
 
4. P-Mags
Uh, haven't used those yet.
 
Of course, it would be even more interesting to address those engine= s=20 that are supercharged or turbocharged, not to mention the induction=20 system limitations inherent carbureted engines.
 
Scott Krueger
Getting a lot from the little engine that could.
 
 
In a message dated 12/12/2011 6:53:19 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 brent@regandesigns.com writes:
A=20 while ago I was approached by Monty Barrett of BPA to develop and=20
ignition system for the 9 cylinder M14 radial engine. The magnetos = for=20
these engines were out of production and unreliable. We applied our= =20
experience designing certified aerospace electronics and came up wi= th a=20
magneto replacement system with a Timing Controller that featured a= n=20
internal poly-phase alternator, manifold pressure sensor, independe= nt=20
High-Q magnetic flux sensors and dual microprocessors with cascadin= g=20
redundancy. Everything is packaged in a billet machined, O-ring sea= led=20
MIL-Spec, water and dust proof anodized housing. The Timing Control= ler=20
is coupled to independent "Coil Near Plug" high energy Smart Coils = that=20
deliver a measured 80+mJ of energy to the spark plasma. The entire= =20
system is rated to 125 degrees C operating temperature (257 degF), = 10G=20

sign-on-random vibration, direct and indirect lightning effects= as=20 well
as a host of other DO160F test requirements.

While we w= ere=20 designing this system it occurred to me that I would like
a couple = of=20 these on my IV-P, so we designed it so it could accommodate
6 or 9= =20 cylinder engines. The only difference being the internal sensor
rat= io=20 and firmware.

The system components have passed qualification te= sting=20 and the 9
cylinder system is currently on the BPA dynamometer under= going=20
performance mapping and endurance testing. This is where we develop= the=20
advance parameters for RPM and manifold pressure. It really isn't= =20
practical to attempt to develop these advance curves without a=20 dynamometer.

Monty at BPA is currently booking orders for the 9= =20 cylinder M14 system.
The problem with the 6 cylinder "market" is th= at=20 there are many
variables and each significant variant of manufactur= er,=20 induction system
and compression ratio needs to be dynomometer=20 qualified. So, to solve
this problem Monty will be offering a=20 significant discount on the
ignition system to select 6 cylinder=20 customers who have BPA perform
their overhaul and consent to having= =20 Monty performance map their engine
after the post overhaul dyanamom= eter=20 run-in.

The reason for the dyno testing is that it is not a good= idea=20 to just
make a guess at the correct timing based on RPM and manifol= d=20 pressure
and then go fly. That would be like buying a suit out of a= =20 catalog. A
good outcome is unlikely.

The attached picture sh= ows=20 the Timing Controller. It replaces the
magneto and contains the pol= y=20 phase alternator, electronics and manifold
pressure sensor. The MIL= -Spec=20 connector is the interface to the
individual coils. The red cap cov= ers=20 the -4 JIC threaded fitting for the
manifold pressure connection. U= nder=20 the blue cap are the firmware update
connector and integral static= =20 timing light. There is NO separate "Brain
Box" to deal with.
The=20 system is not available for 4 cylinder engines at this time.

If = you=20 are interested, contact BPA=20 http://www.bpaengines.com

Regards
Brent=20 Regan



--
For archives and unsub=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


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