X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:11:34 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from carbinge.com ([69.5.27.218] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with SMTP id 5214026 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Nov 2011 10:28:57 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.5.27.218; envelope-from=jbarrett@carbinge.com Received: (qmail 10518 invoked from network); 25 Nov 2011 15:28:20 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; h=X-Originating-IP:Reply-To:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; s=default; d=carbinge.com; b=VMUwoEIHNFYc7VIgS0Ndz0jo8tQhkf4yir3G2iILRWLYIf2HU75cAOPVxyDGswmu8njRmlVlkiQsLnWO0s6S3GwBpV5OEPMCyDt83QVNzlKyKM2wyHzjFcMmrfoxX8LYmRrrDxnm+j90O7+6T9HBsBYE5c8NZFTAEVI4v7uelKk=; X-Originating-IP: [24.143.114.8] Reply-To: From: "John Barrett" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved X-Original-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:28:19 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: <016201ccab86$dccad730$96608590$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0163_01CCAB43.CEA79730" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcyrfCHnfaX9OSa+ReSAYuRKFA2LdgACSw0Q Content-Language: en-us This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0163_01CCAB43.CEA79730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For any production hinges a tolerance is required between diameter of = the orifice and diameter of the pin in order to avoid having to reject = lots of parts that have too much friction. For this reason, the amount = of play in Carbinge vs aluminum is likely to be similar. In either = case, you can substitute different size pins in order to diminish the = play. =20 A major and important difference between the two is that with aluminum = hinges I don=E2=80=99t think you can avoid corrosive wear of the inside = diameter of the hinge over time. Therefore aluminum hinges will always = become looser over time and will tend to develop the play being = discussed even if during installation the parts are match fit to avoid = play. =20 Carbinge in our tests does not wear over time. The fit at installation = should remain the same. =20 =20 In either case, the pin itself can corrode. This will usually result in = the pin being more difficult to remove because of rust deposits on the = pin. It is good with Carbinge applications to occasionally remove the = pins and clean them with Scotchbrite before re-inserting. Stainless = Steel pins can decrease this concern but they tend to be more brittle = and can fail due to breakage in some applications. =20 Regards, John Barrett Leading Edge Composites =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = marv@lancair.net Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 Posted for "Bill Wade" : I agree. I=E2=80=99m using Carbinges on my IV-P MG doors and I thought = they had too=20 much play. I think the stock pins are suitable when you=E2=80=99re = attaching cowlings=20 or other curved surfaces but I wanted a tighter fit for use as a hinge,=20 especially if they=E2=80=99d be used for trim tabs. =20 I found a source for precision ground VAR stainless=20 http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vacuum-= arc/dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_1?sr=3D1-1&qid=3D1322133332&filterBy.materia= l_browse=3D16414=20 . I tried a range of diameters and found 0.083 was a good fit. = =E2=80=93Bill Wade =20 From: Chris Zavatson=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:05 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Subject: [Norton AntiSpam][LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 The elevator trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface = that can=20 really ruin your day. The goal for us should be to remove all play from = the=20 trim tab system. There are many ADs and service bulletins written = against=20 certified planes specifying the acceptable limits. We don't have the = luxury=20 of such a guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences = conveyed=20 by others that have stumbled across the edge. Unfortunately the = inherent play=20 in Carbinge is similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will not = improve=20 the situation described in Steve's post. =20 I think Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used = in the=20 tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab = hinge=20 (Randy, correct me if I am wrong). The spherical bearing can be = upgraded to=20 some made to tighter tolerances and with better alloys. =20 Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.net =20 =20 From: John Barrett To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:53 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 =20 CARBINGE =20 FWIW it=E2=80=99s worth a lot. =20 www.carbinge.com =20 =20 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = randy=20 snarr Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 5:29 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved =20 Steve, As a side note, I had a legacy driver stop by my hangar a few years = ago. When=20 he shut down, there was a definite metal on metal rattle in the tail as = the=20 blades came to a stop. I started inspecting the back of his plane before = he=20 got out. He had the same play in the hinges. Especially the outer hinge = pilot=20 side. With the airplane idling, the hinges rattled pretty bad but with the = engine=20 running you could not hear it but it was defintely there at shut down. = The=20 tell tale gray trails were there as well.=20 =20 FWIW.. Randy. =20 "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, = if not=20 utterly impossible" -Simon Newcomb, 1902 =20 From: Steve Colwell To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:48 AM Subject: [LML] Legacy vibrations resolved Our Legacy has had a pitch vibration in the stick that comes and goes. = It=20 seems to be related to about 50% fuel load or less and reduced but = stable=20 power. The plane has about 275 hours and this has been going on since = the=20 first 40 hours. When it is vibrating in level flight (approximately 2 = cycles=20 per second and the stick is visibly moving in a pronounced shake) it = will=20 continue to vibrate when pitched up at about 1.5 G. After the pitch up, = when=20 pitched down to less than 1 G, the vibration will quit. After working = thru=20 many of the same contact points firewall forward and the gear doors Paul = Miller had, I still had the vibration. All the while, I'm thinking, this = is a=20 great way to initiate flutter. I might add, I very carefully rebalanced = the=20 control surfaces after painting.=20 =20 I mentioned the problem to Chris Zavatson at the Lancair Breakfast = Fly-In at=20 Willows, CA.. Chris asked if I had checked the control and trim hinges = for=20 play. That was easy, I check them every pre-flight. Only not the way = Chris=20 checks them. He pushes and pulls looking at the hinge. See video=20 http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/hinges.htm=20 =20 I replaced the Pitch Trim Hinge Pin with Stainless Steel (3/32=E2=80=9D = - .09375)=20 welding wire. Now, no play can be seen in the push pull test. We have = put=20 20+ hours on with the new SS hinge pin and no more stick shake. I = included=20 Paul=E2=80=99s post of problem areas (see below) since I had some of = them too. =20 =20 Steve Colwell Legacy RG 310 hours =20 =20 Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:47 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Legacy vibrations resolved =20 I had written about vibrations in the 300 hour Legacy engine=20 compartment. Many wrote about their fixes. I am happy to report that = the following worked for me: =20 1) Changed engine isolators last year (no difference) 2) enlarged cutout on nose gear door stiffener. After repeatedly = seeing new=20 witness marks I did a retraction test and saw the interference is much = larger=20 than I expected. I trimmed another 1/8 inch from the cutout. This = cutout=20 prevents interference from the bolt attaching the linkage to the nose = gear on=20 both sides. The co-pilot side needed a larger cutout. White primer was = used=20 to show the marks after each flight. I think this was transmitting a = lot of=20 cowl vibration. 3) I sprayed white primer on the areas contacting the baffling. I=20 found three hard hit areas and this is using the factory white powder = coated=20 baffling. Two areas at the front of the #5 cylinder needed bending away = from=20 the cowl. Another area just above the oil cooler on the top side of the = cowl=20 was hitting. The #5 EGT probe was hitting. =20 The #5 forward rocker cover was hitting on the bottom and was peened = about a=20 1/4 to match the form of the cowl. I removed the rocker cover to check = for=20 clearance with the rocker arm. 4) Baffling repairs were made to areas that were not tight against the=20 cowl. This significantly reduced the CHTs. I used the cooling and=20 drag reduction data on lml from owners to help make small but helpful = changes=20 in the baffling. 5) The prop governor cable was a hard hit on the metal baffling and was = trimmed. 6) The nose gear doors had a slight overlap which was trimmed so they = close=20 tight with no gaps. 7) Both main gear inner and outer doors were adjusted to be flush and = tight=20 when retracted. This took a significant amount of time involving small = hinge=20 adjustments and testing of each individual attachment link on the outer = doors=20 to get the right length before attaching both links for the final test. = I say=20 this because the two links are slightly different in length and = geometry. I=20 found one was a little longer than required and actually twisted the = door=20 slightly open when both links were attached. This was not evident until = I=20 retracted the gear using only single links. 8) the large circular baffle behind the prop is cracked in two places = and=20 remains that way until a fix can be made. This appears to be from a = tight fit=20 and needs to be measured for a new smaller piece. This is a large crack = that=20 could easily be flopping around in flight and somehow interfering with = the=20 cooling process. 9) removed the quick drain for oil and replaced with the factory plug. = I have lots of clearance and may put the quick drain back in. =20 The net result is now I have a smooth engine compartment. My symptoms = included a difficult propeller balancing as we could never exactly home = in on=20 a solution. The vibration was small at 2700 rpm and takeoff but = increased=20 significantly with rpm reduction. I attribute that to the higher torque = twisting the engine closer to the left side of the baffling. The = vibration=20 was evident in the cockpit, cowling and when looking at the wings. The = next=20 project will be to replace the silicone baffle with new material and = replace=20 the circular baffle plate behind the prop and replace the left side = metal=20 baffle to better fit the cowl line near the #5 cylinder. Many thanks to = all=20 the suggestions that made this easier to do. =20 Paul Miller N357V Legacy RG =20 =20 =20 -- =20 For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0163_01CCAB43.CEA79730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For any production hinges a tolerance is required between diameter of = the orifice and diameter of the pin in order to avoid having to reject = lots of parts that have too much friction. =C2=A0For this reason, the = amount of play in Carbinge vs aluminum is likely to be similar.=C2=A0 In = either case, you can substitute different size pins in order to diminish = the play.

 

A major and important difference between the two is that with = aluminum hinges I don=E2=80=99t think you can avoid corrosive wear of = the inside diameter of the hinge over time.=C2=A0 Therefore aluminum = hinges will always become looser over time and will tend to develop the = play being discussed even if during installation the parts are match fit = to avoid play.

 

Carbinge in our tests does not wear over time.=C2=A0 The fit at = installation should remain the same.=C2=A0

 

In either case, the pin itself can corrode.=C2=A0 This will usually = result in the pin being more difficult to remove because of rust = deposits on the pin.=C2=A0 It is good with Carbinge applications to = occasionally remove the pins and clean them with Scotchbrite before = re-inserting. =C2=A0Stainless Steel pins can decrease this concern but = they tend to be more brittle and can fail due to breakage in some = applications.

 

Regards,
John Barrett

Leading Edge Composites

 

From:= = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = marv@lancair.net
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 6:11 = AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: = Legacy vibrations resolved

 

Posted for = "Bill Wade" = <super_chipmunk@roadrunner.com>:

  I agree. = I=E2=80=99m using Carbinges on my IV-P MG doors and I thought they had = too
much play. I think the stock pins are suitable when = you=E2=80=99re attaching cowlings
or other curved surfaces but I = wanted a tighter fit for use as a hinge,
especially if = they=E2=80=99d be used for trim tabs.
 
  I found a = source for precision ground VAR stainless =
http://www.smallparts.com/stainless-precision-ground-straightened-vac= uum-arc/dp/B003R50276/ref=3Dsr_1_1?sr=3D1-1&qid=3D1322133332&filt= erBy.material_browse=3D16414
. I tried a range of diameters and = found 0.083 was a good fit. =E2=80=93Bill Wade
 
From: Chris = Zavatson
 Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:05 = PM
 To: lml@lancaironline.net
 Subject: [Norton = AntiSpam][LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved
 
 The = elevator trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface that can =
really ruin your day.  The goal for us should be to remove = all play from the
trim tab system.  There are many ADs and = service bulletins written against
certified planes specifying the = acceptable limits.  We don't have the luxury
of such a = guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences conveyed =
by others that have stumbled across the = edge.  Unfortunately the inherent play
in Carbinge is = similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will not improve
the = situation described in Steve's post.  
 I think = Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used in the =
tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab = hinge
(Randy, correct me if I am wrong).  The spherical = bearing can be upgraded to
some made to tighter tolerances and with = better alloys.
 
 Chris = Zavatson
 N91CZ
 360std
 www.N91CZ.net  = ;
 
From: John Barrett = <jbarrett@carbinge.com>
 To: lml@lancaironline.net =
 Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:53 AM
 Subject: = [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations = resolved
 
 
 CARBINGE
 
FWIW &nb= sp;it=E2=80=99s worth a = lot.
 
 www.carbinge.com
 
 
From: = Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of randy =
snarr
 Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 5:29 AM
 To: = lml@lancaironline.net
 Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations = resolved
 
 Steve,
 As a side note, I had a = legacy driver stop by my hangar a few years ago. When
he shut down, = there was a definite metal on metal rattle in the tail as the
blades = came to a stop. I started inspecting the back of his plane before he =
got out. He had the same play in the hinges. Especially the outer = hinge pilot
side.
 With the airplane idling, the hinges = rattled pretty bad but with the engine
running you could not hear it = but it was defintely there at shut down. The
tell tale gray trails = were there as well. =
 
FWIW..
 Randy.
 
 "Flight by = machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if not =
utterly impossible"
 -Simon Newcomb, = 1902
 
From: Steve Colwell = <mcmess1919@yahoo.com>
 To: lml@lancaironline.net =
 Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:48 AM
 Subject: = [LML] Legacy vibrations resolved
 Our Legacy has had a pitch = vibration in the stick that comes and goes.  It
seems to = be related to about 50% fuel load or less and reduced but stable =
power.  The plane has about 275 hours and this has been = going on since the
first 40 hours.  When it is vibrating = in level flight (approximately 2 cycles
per second and the stick is = visibly moving in a pronounced shake) it will
continue to vibrate = when pitched up at about 1.5 G.  After the pitch up, when =
pitched down to less than 1 G, the vibration will quit.   = After working thru
many of the same contact points firewall forward = and the gear doors Paul
Miller had, I still had the vibration. All = the while, I'm thinking, this is a
great way to initiate = flutter.  I might add, I very carefully rebalanced the =
control surfaces after painting.
 
 I mentioned the = problem to Chris Zavatson at the Lancair Breakfast Fly-In at =
Willows, CA..  Chris asked if I had checked the control = and trim hinges for
play.  That was easy, I check them = every pre-flight.  Only not the way Chris
checks them. He = pushes and pulls looking at the hinge.  See video =
 http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/hinges.htm =
 
 I replaced the Pitch Trim Hinge Pin with Stainless = Steel (3/32=E2=80=9D - .09375)
welding wire.  Now, no play = can be seen in the push pull test.  We have put
20+ hours = on with the new SS hinge pin and no more stick shake.  I = included
Paul=E2=80=99s post of problem areas (see below) since I = had some of them too.  
 
 Steve = Colwell  Legacy RG 310 = hours
 
 
 Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:47 = AM
 To: lml@lancaironline.net
 Subject: [LML] Legacy = vibrations resolved
 
 I had written about vibrations in = the 300 hour Legacy engine
 compartment.  Many wrote = about their fixes.   I am happy to report that
 the = following worked for me:
 
 1) Changed engine isolators = last year (no difference)
 2) enlarged cutout on nose gear door = stiffener.  After repeatedly seeing new
witness marks I = did a retraction test and saw the interference is much larger
than I = expected.  I trimmed another 1/8 inch from the = cutout.  This cutout
prevents interference from the bolt = attaching the linkage to the nose gear on
both sides.  The = co-pilot side needed a larger cutout.  White primer was used =
to show the marks after each flight.  I think this was = transmitting a lot of
cowl vibration.
 3) I sprayed white = primer on the areas contacting the baffling.   I =
 found three hard hit areas and this is using the factory white = powder coated
baffling.  Two areas at the front of the #5 = cylinder needed bending away from
the cowl.  Another area = just above the oil cooler on the top side of the cowl
was = hitting.  The #5 EGT probe was = hitting.  
 The #5 forward rocker cover was hitting on = the bottom and was peened about a
1/4 to match the form of the = cowl.  I removed the rocker cover to check for
clearance = with the rocker arm.
 4) Baffling repairs were made to areas = that were not tight against the
 cowl.   This = significantly reduced the CHTs.  I used the cooling and =
 drag reduction data on lml from owners to help make small but = helpful changes
in the baffling.
 5) The prop governor cable = was a hard hit on the metal baffling and was
trimmed.
 6) = The nose gear doors had a slight overlap which was trimmed so they close =
tight with no gaps.
 7) Both main gear inner and outer doors = were adjusted to be flush and tight
when retracted.  This = took a significant amount of time involving small hinge
adjustments = and testing of each individual attachment link on the outer doors
to = get the right length before attaching both links for the final = test.  I say
this because the two links are slightly = different in length and geometry.  I
found one was a = little longer than required and actually twisted the door
slightly = open when both links were attached.  This was not evident = until I
retracted the gear using only single links.
 8) the = large circular baffle behind the prop is cracked in two places and =
remains that way until a fix can be made.  This appears to = be from a tight fit
and needs to be measured for a new smaller = piece.  This is a large crack that
could easily be = flopping around in flight and somehow interfering with the
cooling = process.
 9) removed the quick drain for oil and replaced with = the factory plug.  
 I have lots of clearance and may = put the quick drain back in.
 
 The net result is now I = have a smooth engine compartment.   My symptoms =
 included a difficult propeller balancing as we could never = exactly home in on
a solution.  The vibration was small at = 2700 rpm and takeoff but increased
significantly with rpm = reduction.  I attribute that to the higher torque
twisting = the engine closer to the left side of the baffling.  The = vibration
was evident in the cockpit, cowling and when looking at = the wings.  The next
project will be to replace the = silicone baffle with new material and replace
the circular baffle = plate behind the prop and replace the left side metal
baffle to = better fit the cowl line near the #5 cylinder.  Many thanks to = all
the suggestions that made this easier to = do.
 
 Paul Miller
 N357V Legacy = RG
 
 
 

--<=
/o:p>
 
For archives and unsub =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html
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