X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 23:11:34 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.229.33] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4.2) with SMTP id 5214471 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:30:36 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.229.33; envelope-from=randylsnarr@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.90.51] by nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2011 02:29:59 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.192] by tm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2011 02:29:59 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1050.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Nov 2011 02:29:59 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 481980.40131.bm@omp1050.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77448 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2011 02:29:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:References:In-Reply-To:Mime-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Message-Id:Cc:X-Mailer:From:Subject:Date:To; b=B7rSPmWpgFSdc0sCs9DE+d3sacqrU+zGNiHxDi7aF5pxYN8SYLg02LQaPowrWDbuVHc7KcNlDaaB5rxiJTkv4RFTLwSfqOKHunHgVu5uNoouCZoBPAtcH7JDDd/tGoGUh/Zm9GcuQ/gdQfCi+6grrqvqIcFftazxt6JwkOkNOYg= ; X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: zdJbBREVM1mTZBT0nKyE406jnW2cJctOJ.02FXA3ZsetLnG 2J9upenYYsOHgODAikciFobIUdNScgBw22WTeapuzQzMIfd8hHo29yThoIvL q3tj7Q2qfswkhIy1N_CEn9U2Vtr77md2hvcDaz76weQFHlQJ9vvSE3WnJZy3 3_gnmXoeoNkyQA5sHjZMA2QXJGrOGdwMdTqZHjU12Np3PeOXDwEMJdblt.2m iiWA0O6S57V.3V7.EnpvkgLrLAaTicurBWKFg5gcEx0T_ZfTgUIv7FZU8XX5 s3_ZFMFyi0Xiwrtx0KclXJ3u8VF0J5LHrXJBgY1CNSfDgH_z4gxbA6qvn40E wC5C5vpFExyibbs_vXlvxvyoPQfRwEraAM7pgATwVweEf1Lkl.OoggXWEVlm MVb2c9JScagbKzNiC_Z2ZjyOc3O2rga5I3ldyZ8HXkvQ.dMeCYRxRmkRSEkw _55ecF.plYXpSmuqUqLQkL9y.TthWhXM5cbnO4YSHqRgNt.5EmsRT1MHWL7h oUBjoCBa1BvFlj58iIYzPK.JwJMENspc6EDFEb4UIHiPUReyh9hrwZQ3FvX. M5C8hyS5pYhgDHOeUMznL03UKLJozsxCO1E5aVUIk X-Yahoo-SMTP: tg4YEXeswBAq79ZTs5A79J5zDY9lAVNV Received: from [192.168.1.106] (randylsnarr@76.8.220.20 with xymcookie) by smtp112-mob.biz.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 2011 18:29:58 -0800 PST References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-575B9004-BEE1-4BEE-823A-4CB425F05F21 X-Original-Message-Id: <81F65A8B-4D89-4167-8597-3BFB6F779969@yahoo.com> X-Original-Cc: "lml@lancaironline.net" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9A334) From: Randy Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved X-Original-Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 19:29:56 -0700 X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List --Apple-Mail-575B9004-BEE1-4BEE-823A-4CB425F05F21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Chris, it is my understanding there was a bad batch of these spherical beari= ngs on the legacy and mk II tail that loosened up in short order. My friend r= eplaced His and the problem has not returned. =20 Randy Snarr Sent from my iPad On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Chris Zavatson wrote= : > The elevator trim tab is perhaps the most neglected control surface that c= an really ruin your day. The goal for us should be to remove all play from t= he trim tab system. There are many ADs and service bulletins written agains= t certified planes specifying the acceptable limits. We don't have the luxu= ry of such a guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences conv= eyed by others that have stumbled across the edge. Unfortunately the inhere= nt play in Carbinge is similar to that of stock MS hinge material and will n= ot improve the situation described in Steve's post.=20 > I think Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used in t= he tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim tab hinge= (Randy, correct me if I am wrong). The spherical bearing can be upgraded t= o some made to tighter tolerances and with better alloys. > =20 > Chris Zavatson > N91CZ > 360std > www.N91CZ.net=20 >=20 > From: John Barrett > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:53 AM > Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved >=20 > CARBINGE > =20 > FWIW it=E2=80=99s worth a lot. > =20 > www.carbinge.com > =20 > =20 > From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of ran= dy snarr > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 5:29 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved > =20 > Steve, > As a side note, I had a legacy driver stop by my hangar a few years ago. W= hen he shut down, there was a definite metal on metal rattle in the tail as t= he blades came to a stop. I started inspecting the back of his plane before h= e got out. He had the same play in the hinges. Especially the outer hinge pi= lot side. > With the airplane idling, the hinges rattled pretty bad but with the engin= e running you could not hear it but it was defintely there at shut down. The= tell tale gray trails were there as well. > =20 > FWIW.. > Randy. > =20 > "Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant, if n= ot utterly impossible" > -Simon Newcomb, 1902 > From: Steve Colwell > To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:48 AM > Subject: [LML] Legacy vibrations resolved > Our Legacy has had a pitch vibration in the stick that comes and goes. It= seems to be related to about 50% fuel load or less and reduced but stable p= ower. The plane has about 275 hours and this has been going on since the fi= rst 40 hours. When it is vibrating in level flight (approximately 2 cycles p= er second and the stick is visibly moving in a pronounced shake) it will con= tinue to vibrate when pitched up at about 1.5 G. After the pitch up, when p= itched down to less than 1 G, the vibration will quit. After working thru m= any of the same contact points firewall forward and the gear doors Paul Mill= er had, I still had the vibration. All the while, I'm thinking, this is a gr= eat way to initiate flutter. I might add, I very carefully rebalanced the c= ontrol surfaces after painting. > =20 > I mentioned the problem to Chris Zavatson at the Lancair Breakfast Fly-In a= t Willows, CA.. Chris asked if I had checked the control and trim hinges fo= r play. That was easy, I check them every pre-flight. Only not the way Chr= is checks them. He pushes and pulls looking at the hinge. See video http:/= /www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/hinges.htm > =20 > I replaced the Pitch Trim Hinge Pin with Stainless Steel (3/32=E2=80=9D - .= 09375) welding wire. Now, no play can be seen in the push pull test. We ha= ve put 20+ hours on with the new SS hinge pin and no more stick shake. I in= cluded Paul=E2=80=99s post of problem areas (see below) since I had some of t= hem too. =20 > =20 > Steve Colwell Legacy RG 310 hours > =20 >=20 > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:47 AM > To: lml@lancaironline.net > Subject: [LML] Legacy vibrations resolved > =20 > I had written about vibrations in the 300 hour Legacy engine > compartment. Many wrote about their fixes. I am happy to report that > the following worked for me: > =20 > 1) Changed engine isolators last year (no difference) > 2) enlarged cutout on nose gear door stiffener. After repeatedly seeing n= ew witness marks I did a retraction test and saw the interference is much la= rger than I expected. I trimmed another 1/8 inch from the cutout. This cut= out prevents interference from the bolt attaching the linkage to the nose ge= ar on both sides. The co-pilot side needed a larger cutout. White primer w= as used to show the marks after each flight. I think this was transmitting a= lot of cowl vibration. > 3) I sprayed white primer on the areas contacting the baffling. I > found three hard hit areas and this is using the factory white powder coat= ed baffling. Two areas at the front of the #5 cylinder needed bending away f= rom the cowl. Another area just above the oil cooler on the top side of the= cowl was hitting. The #5 EGT probe was hitting.=20 > The #5 forward rocker cover was hitting on the bottom and was peened about= a 1/4 to match the form of the cowl. I removed the rocker cover to check f= or clearance with the rocker arm. > 4) Baffling repairs were made to areas that were not tight against the > cowl. This significantly reduced the CHTs. I used the cooling and > drag reduction data on lml from owners to help make small but helpful chan= ges in the baffling. > 5) The prop governor cable was a hard hit on the metal baffling and was tr= immed. > 6) The nose gear doors had a slight overlap which was trimmed so they clos= e tight with no gaps. > 7) Both main gear inner and outer doors were adjusted to be flush and tigh= t when retracted. This took a significant amount of time involving small hi= nge adjustments and testing of each individual attachment link on the outer d= oors to get the right length before attaching both links for the final test.= I say this because the two links are slightly different in length and geom= etry. I found one was a little longer than required and actually twisted th= e door slightly open when both links were attached. This was not evident un= til I retracted the gear using only single links. > 8) the large circular baffle behind the prop is cracked in two places and r= emains that way until a fix can be made. This appears to be from a tight fi= t and needs to be measured for a new smaller piece. This is a large crack t= hat could easily be flopping around in flight and somehow interfering with t= he cooling process. > 9) removed the quick drain for oil and replaced with the factory plug.=20 > I have lots of clearance and may put the quick drain back in. > =20 > The net result is now I have a smooth engine compartment. My symptoms > included a difficult propeller balancing as we could never exactly home in= on a solution. The vibration was small at 2700 rpm and takeoff but increas= ed significantly with rpm reduction. I attribute that to the higher torque t= wisting the engine closer to the left side of the baffling. The vibration w= as evident in the cockpit, cowling and when looking at the wings. The next p= roject will be to replace the silicone baffle with new material and replace t= he circular baffle plate behind the prop and replace the left side metal baf= fle to better fit the cowl line near the #5 cylinder. Many thanks to all th= e suggestions that made this easier to do. > =20 > Paul Miller > N357V Legacy RG > =20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-575B9004-BEE1-4BEE-823A-4CB425F05F21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Chris, it is my understand= ing there was a bad batch of these spherical bearings on the legacy and mk I= I tail that loosened up in short order. My friend replaced His and the probl= em has not returned.  
Randy Snarr

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson@yahoo.com> wrote:

=
The elevator trim t= ab is perhaps the most neglected control surface that can really ruin your d= ay.  The goal for us should be to remove all play from the trim t= ab system.  There are many ADs and service bulletins written against ce= rtified planes specifyin= g the acceptable limits.  We don't have the luxury of suc= h a guidance and thus only find the limits through experiences conveyed by o= thers that have stumbled across the edge.  Unfortunately the i= nherent play in Carbinge is similar to that of stock MS hinge material and w= ill not improve the situation described in Steve's post. 
=
I think Randy's post is also referring to the spherical bearings used in= the tail of the 320/360 MkII and the Legacy in addition to the trim ta= b hinge (Randy, correct me if I am wrong).  The spherical bearing can b= e upgraded to some made to tighter tolerances and with better alloys.
 
Chris Zavatson=
N91CZ
360std

From: John Barrett <jbarrett@= carbinge.com>
To: <= a href=3D"mailto:lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4= :53 AM
Subject: [LML] Re:= Legacy vibrations resolved

CARBINGE
 
FWIW  it=E2=80=99s worth a lot.
 
www.carbinge.com
 
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] <= b>On Behalf Of randy snarr
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 5:2= 9 AM
To: lml@lancaironlin= e.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Legacy vibrations resolved
 
Steve,
As a side note, I had a legacy driver stop by my hangar a= few years ago. When he shut down, there was a definite metal on metal rattl= e in the tail as the blades came to a stop. I started inspecting the back of= his plane before he got out. He had the same play in the hinges. Especially= the outer hinge pilot side.
With the airplane idling, the hinges rattled= pretty bad but with the engine running you could not hear it but it was def= intely there at shut down. The tell tale gray trails were there as well.
 
FWIW..
Randy.
 
"Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical an= d insignificant, if not utterly impossible"
-Simon Newcomb, 1902
From: Steve Colwell <mcmess1919@yahoo.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Sunday, November 20= , 2011 7:48 AM
Subject: [LML] Legacy vibrations resolved
Our Legacy has had a pitch vibration in the stick that co= mes and goes.  It seems to be related to about 50% fuel load or less an= d reduced but stable power.  The plane has about 275 hours and this has= been going on since the first 40 hours.  When it is vibrating in level= flight (approximately 2 cycles per second and the stick is visibly moving i= n a pronounced shake) it will continue to vibrate when pitched up at about 1= .5 G.  After the pitch up, when pitched down to less than 1 G, the vibr= ation will quit.   After working thru many of the same contact poi= nts firewall forward and the gear doors Paul Miller had, I still had the vib= ration. All the while, I'm thinking, this is a great way to initiate flutter= .  I might add, I very carefully rebalanced the control surfaces after p= ainting.
 
I mentioned the problem to Chris Zavatson at the Lancair B= reakfast Fly-In at Willows, CA..  Chris asked if I had checked the cont= rol and trim hinges for play.  That was easy, I check them every pre-fl= ight.  Only not the way Chris checks them. He pushes and pulls looking a= t the hinge.  See video  http://www.n91cz.com/HingePlay/hinges.htm
 
I replaced the Pitch Trim Hinge Pin with Stainless Steel (= 3/32=E2=80=9D - .09375) welding wire.  Now, no play can be seen in the p= ush pull test.  We have put 20+ hours on with the new SS hinge pin and n= o more stick shake.  I included Paul=E2=80=99s post of problem areas (s= ee below) since I had some of them too.  
 
Steve Colwell  Legacy RG 310 hours
 

Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:47 AM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] L= egacy vibrations resolved
 
I had written about vibrations in the 300 hour Legacy eng= ine
compartment.  Many wrote about their fixes. &nb= sp; I am happy to report that
the following worked for me:
 
1) Changed engine isolators last year (no difference)
2) enlarged cutout on nose gear door stiffener.  Aft= er repeatedly seeing new witness marks I did a retraction test and saw the i= nterference is much larger than I expected.  I trimmed another 1/8 inch= from the cutout.  This cutout prevents interference from the bolt atta= ching the linkage to the nose gear on both sides.  The co-pilot side ne= eded a larger cutout.  White primer was used to show the marks after ea= ch flight.  I think this was transmitting a lot of cowl vibration.
3) I sprayed white primer on the areas contacting the baf= fling.   I
found three hard hit areas and this is using the factory w= hite powder coated baffling.  Two areas at the front of the #5 cylinder= needed bending away from the cowl.  Another area just above the oil co= oler on the top side of the cowl was hitting.  The #5 EGT probe was hit= ting. 
The #5 forward rocker cover was hitting on the bottom and= was peened about a 1/4 to match the form of the cowl.  I removed the r= ocker cover to check for clearance with the rocker arm.
4) Baffling repairs were made to areas that were not tigh= t against the
cowl.   This significantly reduced the CHTs.&nb= sp; I used the cooling and
drag reduction data on lml from owners to help make small= but helpful changes in the baffling.
5) The prop governor cable was a hard hit on the metal ba= ffling and was trimmed.
6) The nose gear doors had a slight overlap which was tri= mmed so they close tight with no gaps.
7) Both main gear inner and outer doors were adjusted to b= e flush and tight when retracted.  This took a significant amount of ti= me involving small hinge adjustments and testing of each individual attachme= nt link on the outer doors to get the right length before attaching both lin= ks for the final test.  I say this because the two links are slightly d= ifferent in length and geometry.  I found one was a little longer than r= equired and actually twisted the door slightly open when both links were att= ached.  This was not evident until I retracted the gear using only sing= le links.
8) the large circular baffle behind the prop is cracked i= n two places and remains that way until a fix can be made.  This appear= s to be from a tight fit and needs to be measured for a new smaller piece.&n= bsp; This is a large crack that could easily be flopping around in flight an= d somehow interfering with the cooling process.
9) removed the quick drain for oil and replaced with the f= actory plug. 
I have lots of clearance and may put the quick drain back= in.
 
The net result is now I have a smooth engine compartment.=    My symptoms
included a difficult propeller balancing as we could neve= r exactly home in on a solution.  The vibration was small at 2700 rpm a= nd takeoff but increased significantly with rpm reduction.  I attribute= that to the higher torque twisting the engine closer to the left side of th= e baffling.  The vibration was evident in the cockpit, cowling and when= looking at the wings.  The next project will be to replace the silicon= e baffle with new material and replace the circular baffle plate behind the p= rop and replace the left side metal baffle to better fit the cowl line near t= he #5 cylinder.  Many thanks to all the suggestions that made this easi= er to do.
 
Paul Miller
N357V Legacy RG
 


= --Apple-Mail-575B9004-BEE1-4BEE-823A-4CB425F05F21--