X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:46:37 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([71.74.56.124] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4367084 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:29:44 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=71.74.56.124; envelope-from=Wolfgang@MiCom.net X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=4GK1Slht3WUdSXXcSOu+TCe3GQnvEFDsQSvVHKX2gdo= c=1 sm=0 a=vOZ2vXgoEQMA:10 a=GQCbJdZ--msA:10 a=MHZY6FYWMEQOp7S43i2QIw==:17 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=ndVRne3UAAAA:8 a=az2nqfWbAAAA:8 a=By-h7S5-l5EI6gpdmKcA:9 a=a6n1Sx_-A2ipxbuqn9sA:7 a=raHHH0yFQUummtjxv8tN8RDQmHAA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=t7dr3Dmy9FQA:10 a=Epv4-1N_IxbrV6Pa1kwA:9 a=uP-zgK5mCuaPab6ogcUA:7 a=zww-FxNa4mnzcnqEIidwG1pnoSkA:4 a=MHZY6FYWMEQOp7S43i2QIw==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 74.218.201.50 Received: from [74.218.201.50] ([74.218.201.50:1767] helo=Lobo) by hrndva-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id D1/D1-19143-42B212C4; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:29:08 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <000901cb1251$eecd6440$6401a8c0@Lobo> From: "Wolfgang" X-Original-To: Subject: Re: Odyssey batteries with very limited warranties X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:29:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01CB1230.677DA9D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01CB1230.677DA9D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's entirely possible that a battery can deliver 80% rated capacity at = C/5 but not be able to deliver starting current. Testing needs to be done both ways and if capacity is met, there should = be no problem continuing that batterie's use. Self discharge of lead batteries is about 5% / month at 20=BAC. A float = charger that gives about 2ma-3ma is all that's needed for a 30AH = battery. A battery maintainer that gives a 2A charge and drops to trickle when = the battery gets up to 13.5 - 14V and kicks in again if the battery gets = down to 12V will do nicely also so long as the trickle charge is not too = high. Wolfgang -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- From: Sky2high@aol.com=20 Sender: =20 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Odyssey batteries with very = limited warranties=20 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:39:37 -0400=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 =20 =20 Chris, et al, I use Battery Tenders (BT) on all SLA batteries if there will be = extended periods of disuse, including the airplane. I have a B&C = battery (may be an Odyssey) from 1998 (before the BC110 reversed the = anode/cathode position) that still powers the start motor on a = generator. My tractor battery (used for mowing and snow removal) has = been maintained for years on a BT when not in use. My motorcycle sits = unused through the winter months - the battery is from 2000) and spends = those cold months on a BT - it still works. I have made use of = discarded B&C batteries all over the place - used for raising my = airplane on electric jacks, used for winching it in, etc. They continue = to be usable if maintained with a BT from time to time. I do not temp = fate - the aircraft battery (B&C) is often replaced every 3 or 4 years = depending on how I have misused it. Pre-flight requires checking both = the main battery and the EI backup battery for VDC levels and trends. A battery expert (usually an older person) will tell you that this = is nuts - they just haven't experienced a well made SLA battery with = pads and their reliability - if kept charged/maintained. Of course, = that's just my observation. Grayhawk In a message dated 6/21/2010 5:39:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, = chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes: Paul, Changing the discharge rate during a capacity check will alter = the results Going higher in current will yield less capacity while = using less current will produce a higher capacity. The battery has = internal resistance that also uses up power (turns into heat) during the = discharge test. This loss is roughly a squared function of the current, = therefore changing the discharge current will alter the results. =20 I highly recommend keeping batteries on a maintainer while not = in use. Once I started using these, my batteries (Concorde 25XC) would = retain over 90% capacity even after five years of use. I can now = replace them based on calendar time instead of performance. Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.com =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: paul miller To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Mon, June 21, 2010 5:20:51 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey batteries with very limited = warranties To avoid tossing a good battery you can do a test similar to = that used on our Concorde batteries. Take the amp-hour rating (C1) = and draw a load and measure the amps and time down to the threshold of = 10v or 20v depending on the battery. If we can get 80% of the rated = A-H capacity we keep it. But, we use a normal discharge rate in the = airplane, not a full draw at C1 as I think that is unnecessary. So, = maybe something like 20% of C1 discharging through some lights for = example or a rate that duplicates a discharge rate in the airplane in = your worst condition so that it will show up any faults under load. = Take a measurement every X minutes and get your capacity. I'd do it on = the bench out of the airplane and track the capacity between annuals.=20 We previously tossed these expensive batteries based on calendar = life but we can now leave them on condition using these tests. Paul=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01CB1230.677DA9D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's entirely possible that a battery = can deliver=20 80% rated capacity at C/5 but not be able to deliver starting=20 current.
Testing needs to be done both ways and = if capacity=20 is met, there should be no problem continuing that batterie's = use.
 
Self discharge of lead batteries is = about 5% /=20 month at 20=BAC. A float charger that gives about 2ma-3ma is all that's = needed for=20 a 30AH battery.
 
A battery maintainer that gives a 2A = charge and=20 drops to trickle when the battery gets up to 13.5 - 14V and kicks in = again if=20 the battery gets down to 12V will do nicely also so long as the trickle = charge=20 is not too high.
 
Wolfgang
lml@lancaironline.net
From: Sky2high@aol.com
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Odyssey = batteries with=20 very limited warranties
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:39:37 = -0400
To:
Chris, et al,
 
I use Battery Tenders (BT) on all SLA batteries if there = will be=20 extended periods of disuse, including the  airplane.  I = have a=20 B&C battery (may be an Odyssey) from 1998 (before the BC110 = reversed=20 the anode/cathode position) that still powers the start motor on a = generator.   My tractor battery (used for mowing and = snow=20 removal) has been maintained for years on a BT when not in = use. =20 My motorcycle sits unused through the winter months - the battery = is from=20 2000) and spends those cold months on a BT - it still works.  = I have=20 made use of discarded B&C batteries all over the place - = used for=20 raising my airplane on electric jacks, used for winching it in, = etc. =20 They continue to be usable if maintained with a BT from time to=20 time.  I do not temp fate - the aircraft battery (B&C) is = often=20 replaced every 3 or 4 years depending on how I have misused = it. =20 Pre-flight requires checking both the main battery and the EI = backup=20 battery for VDC levels and trends.
 
A battery expert (usually an older person) will tell you that = this is=20 nuts - they just haven't experienced a well made SLA  battery = with=20 pads and their reliability - if kept charged/maintained.  Of = course,=20 that's just my observation.
 
Grayhawk
 
In a message dated 6/21/2010 5:39:52 P.M. Central Daylight = Time,=20 chris_zavatson@yahoo.com writes:
Paul,
Changing the discharge rate during a capacity check will = alter the=20 results  Going higher in current will yield less=20 capacity while using less current will produce a higher=20 capacity.  The battery has internal resistance that also = uses up=20 power (turns into heat) during the discharge test.  This = loss=20 is roughly a squared function of the current, therefore = changing=20 the discharge current will alter the results.  
 
I highly recommend keeping batteries on a maintainer while = not in=20 use.  Once I started using these, my batteries (Concorde = 25XC)=20 would retain over 90% capacity even after five years of=20 use.   I can now replace them based on calendar = time=20 instead of performance.
 
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std

From: paul miller=20 <paul@tbm700.com>
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Mon, June 21, = 2010=20 5:20:51 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey = batteries=20 with very limited warranties

To avoid tossing a = good=20 battery you can do a test similar to that used on our Concorde=20 batteries.    Take the amp-hour rating (C1) and draw a = load=20 and measure the amps and time down to the threshold of 10v or = 20v=20 depending on the battery.   If we can get 80% of the rated = A-H=20 capacity we keep it.  But, we use a normal discharge rate = in the=20 airplane, not a full draw at C1 as I think that is unnecessary. =  =20 So, maybe something like 20% of C1 discharging through some = lights for=20 example or a rate that duplicates a discharge rate in the = airplane in=20 your worst condition so that it will show up any faults under = load.=20   Take a measurement every X minutes and get your capacity. =  I'd do it on the bench out of the airplane and track the = capacity=20 between annuals.=20

We previously tossed these expensive batteries based on = calendar=20 life but we can now leave them on condition using these = tests.

=
Paul
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