X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:46:37 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.3.8) with ESMTP id 4367115 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:16:11 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=tednoel@cfl.rr.com X-Original-Return-Path: X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=CA18zVAKbrkA:10 a=UBIxAjGgU1YA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ndVRne3UAAAA:8 a=az2nqfWbAAAA:8 a=oCcaPWc0AAAA:8 a=iNakLxrgCvk2Nfa4A3YA:9 a=Ahi3V2QMvUup06URkAUA:7 a=YnWcsBM1PnaIOcBTDtHKtPgsLkQA:4 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 a=ILeVjEvywfEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=t7dr3Dmy9FQA:10 a=Pr3IU_ISI-HSVn0k:21 a=jHFF04gyMrGjJO8p:21 a=QVgjmtfNXIn82gznYNsA:9 a=umsTHqs3h3Yh2zWUogQA:7 a=ls5IZVT99YY4QdYX7DQr8PK2ytsA:4 a=d-1ze5jHbJEA:10 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 97.101.50.108 Received: from [97.101.50.108] ([97.101.50.108:60291] helo=OfficeDesktop) by cdptpa-oedge01.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP id 46/58-24471-806312C4; Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:15:36 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <6E38C9823BBF4E3890A16699157C2D92@OfficeDesktop> From: "Ted Noel" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Odyssey batteries with very limited warranties X-Original-Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:15:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_034B_01CB1236.E8F2C7B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18197 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_034B_01CB1236.E8F2C7B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Deltran makes good battery tenders, but they won't commit to them = working on aircraft batteries. I went to them directly (they're around = the corner from my hangar) and got a rep over the desk to say that with = a matching tender & battery (based solely on battery capacity - don't = tell them aircraft) they work fine. Ted Noel N540TF ----- Original Message -----=20 From: paul miller=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 7:39 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey batteries with very limited warranties I'm with you completely Chris on the battery tender concept. I've = been using them on a VRLA Concorde battery that costs $1800. I = received more than 5 years life on the last battery. I maintain the = Legacy batteries on charge as well with a different make. =20 But testing is a different story and maintainers can't guarantee = capacity. Load testing is the only way to determine some faults. My = batteries failed under load in the Legacy but not on the ground. When I = pulled gear up everything died including my Avidynes. It took a lot of = investigation and help with B&C before we finally tracked it to a = problem with the Odyssey and they were replaced, I think they were 2-3 = years old. The starting amperage for the hydraulic pump caused the = battery to fail under load. My point was that for someone like Bob who = wanted to know his capacity, that test will give him a number and a = trend each year. But since you mention the discharge issue I have = calculated some figures and I am open to corrections and comments of = course. Assuming the PC925 discussed earlier, the 10-hour discharge rate = capacity is 27AH (2.7a for 10 hours). The 20 hour capacity is almost = identical at 28AH. The reserve capacity is 52 minutes at 25A discharge = rate so you have two bookends to use. If an owner wanted to discharge at 25A and got 80% or more of the 52 = minutes before voltage dropped to 10,5v then I would suggest that = battery is good. If the test was performed at a more conservative C10 rate (2.7A) then = the battery would have to stay above 10v for at least 8 hours (80% of 10 = hours). Since Odyssey provides those high and low amperage benchmarks I = believe you can determine remaining capacity using a wide range of rates = and keep those batteries at long as they perform. Paul On 2010-06-21, at 6:39 PM, Chris Zavatson wrote: Paul, Changing the discharge rate during a capacity check will alter the = results Going higher in current will yield less capacity while using = less current will produce a higher capacity. The battery has internal = resistance that also uses up power (turns into heat) during the = discharge test. This loss is roughly a squared function of the current, = therefore changing the discharge current will alter the results. =20 I highly recommend keeping batteries on a maintainer while not in = use. Once I started using these, my batteries (Concorde 25XC) would = retain over 90% capacity even after five years of use. I can now = replace them based on calendar time instead of performance. Chris Zavatson N91CZ 360std www.N91CZ.com =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: paul miller To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Mon, June 21, 2010 5:20:51 AM Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey batteries with very limited warranties To avoid tossing a good battery you can do a test similar to that = used on our Concorde batteries. Take the amp-hour rating (C1) and = draw a load and measure the amps and time down to the threshold of 10v = or 20v depending on the battery. If we can get 80% of the rated A-H = capacity we keep it. But, we use a normal discharge rate in the = airplane, not a full draw at C1 as I think that is unnecessary. So, = maybe something like 20% of C1 discharging through some lights for = example or a rate that duplicates a discharge rate in the airplane in = your worst condition so that it will show up any faults under load. = Take a measurement every X minutes and get your capacity. I'd do it on = the bench out of the airplane and track the capacity between annuals. We previously tossed these expensive batteries based on calendar = life but we can now leave them on condition using these tests. Paul On 2010-06-19, at 3:01 PM, Robert R Pastusek wrote: Robert Simon wrote: Just had two of my four Odyssey PC680 batteries crap out after 2 = years of service although an identical set on the other buss are fine=85 Robert, I have a similar setup in my IV-P and had planned to replace two = of the four batteries every two years, expecting them to last for four = years=85but I never looked at the expected/advertised life; I was just = following a practice used for lead/acid batteries. Two of my batteries = are coming up on two years old; the other pair are coming up on four = years, and I=92d planned to replace them during the condition inspection = next month. I=92d appreciate your thoughts/experience on this. Thanks, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2956 - Release Date: = 06/22/10 14:36:00 ------=_NextPart_000_034B_01CB1236.E8F2C7B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Deltran makes good battery tenders, but they = won't commit=20 to them working on aircraft batteries. I went to them directly (they're = around=20 the corner from my hangar) and got a rep over the desk to say that with = a=20 matching tender & battery (based solely on battery capacity - don't = tell=20 them aircraft) they work fine.
 
Ted Noel
N540TF
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 paul = miller
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 = 7:39=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey = batteries with=20 very limited warranties

I'm with you completely Chris on the battery tender = concept.=20  I've been using them on a VRLA Concorde battery that costs = $1800.  =20  I received more than 5 years life on the last battery.  I = maintain=20 the Legacy batteries on charge as well with a different make. =   

But testing is a different story and maintainers can't guarantee=20 capacity.    Load testing is the only way to determine some = faults.=20 My batteries failed under load in the Legacy but not on the ground. =  When=20 I pulled gear up everything died including my Avidynes.   It took = a lot=20 of investigation and help with B&C before we finally tracked it to = a=20 problem with the Odyssey and they were replaced, I think they were 2-3 = years=20 old.  The starting amperage for the hydraulic pump caused the = battery to=20 fail under load.  My point was that for someone like Bob who = wanted to=20 know his capacity, that test will give him a number and a trend each = year.=20  But since you mention the discharge issue I have calculated some = figures=20 and I am open to corrections and comments of course.

Assuming the PC925 discussed earlier, the 10-hour discharge rate = capacity=20 is 27AH (2.7a for 10 hours).   The 20 hour capacity is almost = identical=20 at 28AH.  The reserve capacity is 52 minutes at 25A discharge = rate so you=20 have two bookends to use.

If an owner wanted to discharge at 25A and got 80% or more of the = 52=20 minutes before voltage dropped to 10,5v then I would suggest that = battery is=20 good.

If the test was performed at a more conservative C10 rate (2.7A) = then the=20 battery would have to stay above 10v for at least 8 hours (80% of 10=20 hours).

Since Odyssey provides those high and low amperage benchmarks I = believe=20 you can determine remaining capacity using a wide range of rates and = keep=20 those batteries at long as they perform.

Paul
On 2010-06-21, at 6:39 PM, Chris Zavatson wrote:
Paul,
Changing the discharge rate during a = capacity check=20 will alter the results  Going higher in current will yield less = capacity while using less current will produce a higher = capacity. =20 The battery has internal resistance that also uses up power (turns = into=20 heat) during the discharge test.  This loss is roughly a = squared=20 function of the current, therefore changing the discharge current = will alter=20 the results.  
 
I highly recommend keeping batteries on a = maintainer while not in use.  Once I started using these, my = batteries=20 (Concorde 25XC) would retain over 90% capacity even after five = years of=20 use.   I can now replace them based on calendar time = instead=20 of performance.
 
 
Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.com   

From: paul miller <paul@tbm700.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Mon, June 21, 2010 = 5:20:51=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: Odyssey = batteries with=20 very limited warranties

To avoid tossing a good = battery you=20 can do a test similar to that used on our Concorde batteries.   =  Take the amp-hour rating (C1) and draw a load and measure the = amps and=20 time down to the threshold of 10v or 20v depending on the battery. =   If=20 we can get 80% of the rated A-H capacity we keep it.  But, we = use a=20 normal discharge rate in the airplane, not a full draw at C1 as I = think that=20 is unnecessary.   So, maybe something like 20% of C1 = discharging=20 through some lights for example or a rate that duplicates a = discharge rate=20 in the airplane in your worst condition so that it will show up any = faults=20 under load.   Take a measurement every X minutes and get your = capacity.=20  I'd do it on the bench out of the airplane and track the = capacity=20 between annuals.

We previously tossed these expensive = batteries=20 based on calendar life but we can now leave them on condition using = these=20 tests.

Paul
On 2010-06-19, at 3:01 PM, Robert R = Pastusek=20 wrote:

Robert=20 Simon wrote:
 
Just had = two of my=20 four Odyssey PC680 batteries crap out after 2 years of service = although an=20 identical set on the other buss are fine=85
 
Robert,
I=20 have a similar setup in my IV-P and had planned to replace two of = the four=20 batteries every two years, expecting them to last for four = years=85but I=20 never looked at the expected/advertised life; I was just following = a=20 practice used for lead/acid batteries. Two of my batteries are = coming up=20 on two years old; the other pair are coming up on four years, and = I=92d=20 planned to replace them during the condition inspection next = month.=20 I=92d  appreciate your thoughts/experience on = this.
Thanks,
Bob




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG = -=20 www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.829 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2956 - = Release=20 Date: 06/22/10 14:36:00
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