X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 15:49:55 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from nlpi129.prodigy.net ([207.115.36.143] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3814903 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Aug 2009 13:09:45 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.36.143; envelope-from=Wendell@solesbeeauto.com Received: from userpy6telul28 (adsl-63-197-35-114.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.197.35.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by nlpi129.prodigy.net (8.13.8 smtpauth/dk/map_regex/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n7GH9578019749 for ; Sun, 16 Aug 2009 12:09:05 -0500 X-Original-Message-ID: <0B25EFAF336F4362AEDCDABAF4B24F08@userpy6telul28> Reply-To: "Wendell Solesbee" From: "Wendell Solesbee" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: OSH arrival X-Original-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 10:09:13 -0700 Organization: Solesbee Auto Crafts, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01CA1E59.9AC3DB50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01CA1E59.9AC3DB50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used the warbird arrival this year with no problems. I reported at = Fond du Lac and again at Warbird Island and was cleared to land on = runway 36. Other than a 20 kt crosswind there were no problems. IN 2008 = when using the FISK arrival I had to go around three times. When I tried = to extend out to give myself some room someone would cut in front of = me.On the last go around I passed a bonanza on about a one mile final = and landed ahead of him. That experience made me decide to use the = warbird arrival the next year and it worked great. =20 Wendell Solesbee IVP N4LK ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douglas Brunner=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:33 AM Subject: [LML] Re: OSH arrival=20 Bill, I absolutely agree with you. I avoid flying into Oshkosh and Sun n = Fun for much the same reasons as you detail below. Tried to get the warbird arrival last year. I even arranged it with = the tower at Fond du Lac. On my way in to Oshkosh, I was asked if I was = a Warbird - I honestly told them I was not - they told me I could not = have the warbird arrival. I then tried to get the "turbine arrival" - = they asked me if I was a turbine - again I replied honestly and they = told me I could not have the "turbine arrival". I was forced to make a = short pattern and land on the taxiway - which actually worked OK. I don't think the Oshkosh controllers have any idea about the V speeds = of the planes they are controlling. Their emphasis is on getting = everyone in as quickly as possible whether safely or not. Because of my experience coming in to Oshkosh last year, I came in to = Fond du Lac this year. D. Brunner N241DB ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Hannahan=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: [LML] OSH arrival=20 If you have any comments on the Oshkosh arrival procedure you = can send them here. My $0.02 below. https://secure.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html=20 Two comments. 1... I flew my Lancair 360 using the high approach. All = traffic was landing 27 and it was busy. The first half of the approach = to Fisk went well. At Fisk I was instructed to descend and merge with = traffic in the low pattern. Merging fast with slow traffic miles from the airport out of = sight, and instructing them to maintain 1/2 mile spacing with no S turns = is requiring them to violate fundamental limitations of physics. The = situation will get worse each year as light sport planes proliferate. = This is why pilots of many fast aircraft are switching to the warbird = arrival. If that is what you want eliminate the high approach and = instruct fast aircraft to use the warbird arrival. My recommendation is to keep the fast and slow aircraft = separated by altitude until the controller has them in sight and calls = the turn to base on 27 or final on 36 R/L. The controller can point out = the aircraft to follow and there are at least two sets of eyes looking = for a potential collision instead of one. You could position another = controller out at half mile final watching the merge up close. That = controller would remain silent unless a conflict develops.=20 2... There was a substantial north crosswind. the controller = repeatedly instructed me to fly a close in downwind, which I refused to = do as I was already at my comfort limit. The controller called a very = close-in base behind a slow moving Cessna. Half way through base he = instructed the Cessna to land long and for me to land on the pink dot, = closest to the threshold.. This called for a steep power off turn to = final. With a continuous steep turn from downwind I still overshot the = centerline somewhat due to the tailwind on base. Had I flown as close in = as the controller wanted, the overshoot would have been been much = greater. With 2,200 hours in the aircraft including countless practice = dead stick landings and many Oshkosh arrivals I found the situation = challenging. I flew on hair trigger, prepared to go around if at any = point it became "uncomfortable". I am concerned for the new builders who have just completed = flying off the 25 hours on a high performance aircraft and are bringing = it to Oshkosh for the first time, especially inexperienced pilots who = feel compelled to do whatever the controller calls for. Asking them to perform such an unusual and challenging = maneuver is too dangerous. The compounding of multiple factors, = following a slow aircraft, close in downwind, tailwind on base, close in = base and last minute land short instruction can overload the pilot into = a situation where he is low and slow pulling too much G in a steep turn. = That could easily end with a snap roll into the ground. Fast aircraft should not be expected to fly as close in on = downwind as a the slower aircraft.=20 The call to turn base should include the proposed touchdown = point so that he can set the right power setting, and give the pilots at = least a 1/3mile final to the proposed touchdown point allowing them = enough time to stabilize their approach. Given the wide range of experience of Oshkosh pilots, the = arrival procedure should not ask them to do things that are dramatically = different and more difficult than what they do in their normal flying. Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01CA1E59.9AC3DB50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I used the warbird arrival this year = with no=20 problems. I reported at Fond du Lac and again at Warbird Island and was = cleared=20 to land on runway 36. Other than a 20 kt crosswind there were no = problems. IN=20 2008 when using the FISK arrival I had to go around three times. = When I=20 tried to extend out to give myself some room someone would cut in front = of me.On=20 the last go around I passed a bonanza on about a one mile = final=20 and landed ahead of him. That experience made me decide to use the = warbird=20 arrival the next year and it worked great.  
 
Wendell Solesbee IVP  = N4LK
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Douglas Brunner =
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 = 5:33=20 AM
Subject: [LML] Re: OSH arrival =

Bill,
 
I absolutely agree with you.  I = avoid flying=20 into Oshkosh and Sun n Fun for much the same reasons as you detail=20 below.
 
Tried to get the warbird arrival last = year. =20 I even arranged it with the tower at Fond du Lac.  On my way in = to=20 Oshkosh, I was asked if I was a Warbird - I honestly told them I was = not=20 - they told me I could not have the warbird arrival.  I then = tried=20 to get the "turbine arrival" - they asked me if I was a turbine - = again I=20 replied honestly and they told me I could not have the "turbine=20 arrival".  I was forced to make a short pattern and land on the = taxiway -=20 which actually worked OK.
 
I don't think the Oshkosh controllers = have any=20 idea about the V speeds of the planes they are controlling.  = Their=20 emphasis is on getting everyone in as quickly as possible whether = safely or=20 not.
 
Because of my experience coming in to = Oshkosh=20 last year, I came in to Fond du Lac this year.
 
D. Brunner
N241DB
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Hannahan
Sent: Saturday, August 15, = 2009 1:10=20 PM
Subject: [LML] OSH arrival =


If you have any comments on the Oshkosh = arrival=20 procedure you can send them here. My $0.02 below.

https://secu= re.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html=20



Two comments.

1... I flew my Lancair = 360 using=20 the high approach. All traffic was landing 27 and it was busy. = The=20 first half of the approach to Fisk went well. At Fisk I was = instructed=20 to descend and merge with traffic in the low = pattern.

Merging=20 fast with slow traffic miles from the airport out of sight, = and=20 instructing them to maintain 1/2 mile spacing with no S turns = is=20 requiring them to violate  fundamental limitations of = physics.=20 The situation will get worse each year as light sport planes=20 proliferate. This is why pilots of many fast aircraft are = switching to=20 the warbird arrival. If  that is what you want eliminate = the high=20 approach and instruct fast aircraft to use the warbird=20 arrival.

My recommendation is to keep the fast and slow = aircraft separated by altitude until the controller has them = in sight=20 and calls the turn to base on 27 or final on 36 R/L. The = controller=20 can point out the aircraft to follow and there are at least = two sets=20 of eyes looking for a potential collision instead of one. You = could=20 position another controller out at half mile final watching = the merge=20 up close. That controller would remain silent unless a = conflict=20 develops.

2...  There was a substantial north = crosswind.=20 the controller repeatedly instructed me to fly a close in = downwind,=20 which I refused to do as I was already at my comfort limit. = The=20 controller called a very close-in base behind a slow moving = Cessna.=20 Half way through base he instructed  the Cessna to land = long and=20 for me to land on the pink dot, closest to the threshold.. = This called=20 for a steep power off turn to final. With  a continuous = steep=20 turn from downwind I still overshot the centerline somewhat = due to the=20 tailwind on base. Had I flown as close in as the controller = wanted,=20 the overshoot would have been been much greater.

With = 2,200=20 hours in the aircraft including countless practice dead stick = landings=20 and many Oshkosh arrivals I found the situation challenging. I = flew on=20 hair trigger, prepared to go around if at any point it became=20 "uncomfortable".

I am concerned for the new builders = who have=20 just completed flying off the 25 hours on a high performance = aircraft=20 and are bringing it to Oshkosh for the first time, especially=20 inexperienced pilots who feel compelled to do whatever the = controller=20 calls for.

 Asking them to perform such an unusual = and=20 challenging maneuver is too dangerous. The compounding of = multiple=20 factors, following a slow aircraft, close in downwind, = tailwind on=20 base, close in base and last minute land short instruction can = overload the pilot into a situation where he is low and slow = pulling=20 too much G in a steep turn. That could easily end with a snap = roll=20 into the ground.

Fast aircraft should not be expected = to fly as=20 close in on downwind as a the slower aircraft.

The = call to=20 turn base should include the proposed touchdown point so that = he can=20 set the right power setting, and give the pilots at least a = 1/3mile=20 final to the proposed touchdown point allowing them enough = time to=20 stabilize their approach.

Given the wide range of = experience of=20 Oshkosh pilots, the arrival procedure should not ask them to = do things=20 that are dramatically different and more difficult than what = they do=20 in their normal flying.

Regards,
Bill Hannahan
<= BR> ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01CA1E59.9AC3DB50--