X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 08:33:19 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.62] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3814759 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:26:59 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.86.89.62; envelope-from=douglasbrunner@earthlink.net DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=XgGSd95mu3CNyetfx0boHqgq28shvxXaHH6TaQ5/z5Y8qLS7W+UjbVAzIvJG7bgI; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [65.19.76.202] (helo=DougsLaptop) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MccwS-0004sb-1O for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:26:24 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: From: "Douglas Brunner" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [LML] OSH arrival X-Original-Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:26:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AE_01CA1E3A.793CE1D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 X-ELNK-Trace: ad85a799c4f5de37c2eb1477c196d22294f5150ab1c16ac0d64a9adbca5b3d7c4105570db730b3123fedcbcad006036b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.19.76.202 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01CA1E3A.793CE1D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, I absolutely agree with you. I avoid flying into Oshkosh and Sun n Fun = for much the same reasons as you detail below. Tried to get the warbird arrival last year. I even arranged it with the = tower at Fond du Lac. On my way in to Oshkosh, I was asked if I was a = Warbird - I honestly told them I was not - they told me I could not have = the warbird arrival. I then tried to get the "turbine arrival" - they = asked me if I was a turbine - again I replied honestly and they told me = I could not have the "turbine arrival". I was forced to make a short = pattern and land on the taxiway - which actually worked OK. I don't think the Oshkosh controllers have any idea about the V speeds = of the planes they are controlling. Their emphasis is on getting = everyone in as quickly as possible whether safely or not. Because of my experience coming in to Oshkosh last year, I came in to = Fond du Lac this year. D. Brunner N241DB ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Hannahan=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: [LML] OSH arrival=20 If you have any comments on the Oshkosh arrival procedure you = can send them here. My $0.02 below. https://secure.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html=20 Two comments. 1... I flew my Lancair 360 using the high approach. All traffic = was landing 27 and it was busy. The first half of the approach to Fisk = went well. At Fisk I was instructed to descend and merge with traffic in = the low pattern. Merging fast with slow traffic miles from the airport out of = sight, and instructing them to maintain 1/2 mile spacing with no S turns = is requiring them to violate fundamental limitations of physics. The = situation will get worse each year as light sport planes proliferate. = This is why pilots of many fast aircraft are switching to the warbird = arrival. If that is what you want eliminate the high approach and = instruct fast aircraft to use the warbird arrival. My recommendation is to keep the fast and slow aircraft = separated by altitude until the controller has them in sight and calls = the turn to base on 27 or final on 36 R/L. The controller can point out = the aircraft to follow and there are at least two sets of eyes looking = for a potential collision instead of one. You could position another = controller out at half mile final watching the merge up close. That = controller would remain silent unless a conflict develops.=20 2... There was a substantial north crosswind. the controller = repeatedly instructed me to fly a close in downwind, which I refused to = do as I was already at my comfort limit. The controller called a very = close-in base behind a slow moving Cessna. Half way through base he = instructed the Cessna to land long and for me to land on the pink dot, = closest to the threshold.. This called for a steep power off turn to = final. With a continuous steep turn from downwind I still overshot the = centerline somewhat due to the tailwind on base. Had I flown as close in = as the controller wanted, the overshoot would have been been much = greater. With 2,200 hours in the aircraft including countless practice = dead stick landings and many Oshkosh arrivals I found the situation = challenging. I flew on hair trigger, prepared to go around if at any = point it became "uncomfortable". I am concerned for the new builders who have just completed = flying off the 25 hours on a high performance aircraft and are bringing = it to Oshkosh for the first time, especially inexperienced pilots who = feel compelled to do whatever the controller calls for. Asking them to perform such an unusual and challenging maneuver = is too dangerous. The compounding of multiple factors, following a slow = aircraft, close in downwind, tailwind on base, close in base and last = minute land short instruction can overload the pilot into a situation = where he is low and slow pulling too much G in a steep turn. That could = easily end with a snap roll into the ground. Fast aircraft should not be expected to fly as close in on = downwind as a the slower aircraft.=20 The call to turn base should include the proposed touchdown = point so that he can set the right power setting, and give the pilots at = least a 1/3mile final to the proposed touchdown point allowing them = enough time to stabilize their approach. Given the wide range of experience of Oshkosh pilots, the = arrival procedure should not ask them to do things that are dramatically = different and more difficult than what they do in their normal flying. Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AE_01CA1E3A.793CE1D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
I absolutely agree with you.  I = avoid flying=20 into Oshkosh and Sun n Fun for much the same reasons as you detail=20 below.
 
Tried to get the warbird arrival last = year.  I=20 even arranged it with the tower at Fond du Lac.  On my way in to = Oshkosh, I=20 was asked if I was a Warbird - I honestly told them I was not = - they told=20 me I could not have the warbird arrival.  I then tried to get the = "turbine=20 arrival" - they asked me if I was a turbine - again I replied honestly = and they=20 told me I could not have the "turbine arrival".  I was forced to = make a=20 short pattern and land on the taxiway - which=20 actually worked OK.
 
I don't think the Oshkosh controllers = have any idea=20 about the V speeds of the planes they are controlling.  Their = emphasis is=20 on getting everyone in as quickly as possible whether safely or=20 not.
 
Because of my experience coming in to = Oshkosh last=20 year, I came in to Fond du Lac this year.
 
D. Brunner
N241DB
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Hannahan
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 = 1:10=20 PM
Subject: [LML] OSH arrival =


If you have any comments on the Oshkosh = arrival=20 procedure you can send them here. My $0.02 below.

https://secu= re.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html=20



Two comments.

1... I flew my Lancair 360 = using=20 the high approach. All traffic was landing 27 and it was busy. = The first=20 half of the approach to Fisk went well. At Fisk I was instructed = to=20 descend and merge with traffic in the low = pattern.

Merging fast=20 with slow traffic miles from the airport out of sight, and = instructing=20 them to maintain 1/2 mile spacing with no S turns is requiring = them to=20 violate  fundamental limitations of physics. The situation = will get=20 worse each year as light sport planes proliferate. This is why = pilots of=20 many fast aircraft are switching to the warbird arrival. = If  that=20 is what you want eliminate the high approach and instruct fast = aircraft=20 to use the warbird arrival.

My recommendation is to keep = the fast=20 and slow aircraft separated by altitude until the controller has = them in=20 sight and calls the turn to base on 27 or final on 36 R/L. The=20 controller can point out the aircraft to follow and there are at = least=20 two sets of eyes looking for a potential collision instead of = one. You=20 could position another controller out at half mile final = watching the=20 merge up close. That controller would remain silent unless a = conflict=20 develops.

2...  There was a substantial north = crosswind.=20 the controller repeatedly instructed me to fly a close in = downwind,=20 which I refused to do as I was already at my comfort limit. The=20 controller called a very close-in base behind a slow moving = Cessna. Half=20 way through base he instructed  the Cessna to land long and = for me=20 to land on the pink dot, closest to the threshold.. This called = for a=20 steep power off turn to final. With  a continuous steep = turn from=20 downwind I still overshot the centerline somewhat due to the = tailwind on=20 base. Had I flown as close in as the controller wanted, the = overshoot=20 would have been been much greater.

With 2,200 hours in = the=20 aircraft including countless practice dead stick landings and = many=20 Oshkosh arrivals I found the situation challenging. I flew on = hair=20 trigger, prepared to go around if at any point it became=20 "uncomfortable".

I am concerned for the new builders who = have=20 just completed flying off the 25 hours on a high performance = aircraft=20 and are bringing it to Oshkosh for the first time, especially=20 inexperienced pilots who feel compelled to do whatever the = controller=20 calls for.

 Asking them to perform such an unusual = and=20 challenging maneuver is too dangerous. The compounding of = multiple=20 factors, following a slow aircraft, close in downwind, tailwind = on base,=20 close in base and last minute land short instruction can = overload the=20 pilot into a situation where he is low and slow pulling too much = G in a=20 steep turn. That could easily end with a snap roll into the=20 ground.

Fast aircraft should not be expected to fly as = close in=20 on downwind as a the slower aircraft.

The call to turn = base=20 should include the proposed touchdown point so that he can set = the right=20 power setting, and give the pilots at least a 1/3mile final to = the=20 proposed touchdown point allowing them enough time to stabilize = their=20 approach.

Given the wide range of experience of Oshkosh = pilots,=20 the arrival procedure should not ask them to do things that are=20 dramatically different and more difficult than what they do in = their=20 normal flying.

Regards,
Bill Hannahan
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