X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 13:10:48 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web33907.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([209.191.69.185] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with SMTP id 3813916 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Aug 2009 23:41:35 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.191.69.185; envelope-from=wfhannahan@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 67258 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Aug 2009 03:41:00 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bmkuRBfrqU6uasp6u8+H2z6V7smXPLJOhHHG9Z5UNlyXPg1L993MaknIiGHqJOqXk3Bvp3Od3u5hsxbaG5P0cZ8/gm6lUbL+zVCpJPCNfj7T8EPaoaYBhdPJ1STiAIX1oD/gaKu8wczMo8/aW+MTaHC50MzQp8oW/fP4jgxy7WM=; X-Original-Message-ID: <589459.66969.qm@web33907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 19cBpHgVM1lXKg1NwzZPT3sxBU37yeAREeteGLYe1oOvPiyfhwwkYgK.tja4giRRhr_gQdDTyjyUFCvm8tS15Wfe7Lq2X8q_MzWVzxcwtELyHLl1QaK87wZUQB1JP0jE1EwlwIcUj.pR2ySPqStW1JyvNXCgxDiIuUCNv1kUMYfIzjVIt8OB5BfWI0pYhGBXFByaITMWdzrEi.m27pCi7NxC2OhPR96YWIEknhx.3_pqrnrKFBrUBV368geaFL8eqI6i4tCkc.oCLTpqlMH3Mm.KB7PJvmoj8FRg6upSToYw58HXECXl6AjxHrES8gqFsJTbCvxTb_EC0mNF Received: from [71.210.215.32] by web33907.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:41:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/6.1.2 YahooMailWebService/0.7.338.2 X-Original-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:41:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Hannahan Subject: OSH arrival X-Original-To: MAIL LANCAIR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-571479509-1250307660=:66969" --0-571479509-1250307660=:66969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have any comments on the Oshkosh arrival procedure you can send them= here. My $0.02 below. https://secure.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html=20 Two comments. 1... I flew my Lancair 360 using the high=0Aapproach. All traffic was landi= ng 27 and it was busy. The first half of=0Athe approach to Fisk went well. = At Fisk I was instructed to descend and=0Amerge with traffic in the low pat= tern. Merging fast with slow=0Atraffic miles from the airport out of sight, and i= nstructing them to=0Amaintain 1/2 mile spacing with no S turns is requiring= them to violate=A0=0Afundamental limitations of physics. The situation wil= l get worse each=0Ayear as light sport planes proliferate. This is why pilo= ts of many fast=0Aaircraft are switching to the warbird arrival. If=A0 that= is what you=0Awant eliminate the high approach and instruct fast aircraft = to use the=0Awarbird arrival. My recommendation is to keep the fast and slow=0Aaircraft separated by alti= tude until the controller has them in sight=0Aand calls the turn to base on= 27 or final on 36 R/L. The controller can point=0Aout the aircraft to foll= ow and there are at least two sets of eyes=0Alooking for a potential collis= ion instead of one. You could position=0Aanother controller out at half mil= e final watching the merge up close.=0AThat controller would remain silent = unless a conflict develops.=20 2...=A0=0AThere was a substantial north crosswind. the controller repeatedl= y=0Ainstructed me to fly a close in downwind, which I refused to do as I=0A= was already at my comfort limit. The controller called a very close-in=0Aba= se behind a slow moving Cessna. Half way through base he instructed=A0=0Ath= e Cessna to land long and for me to land on the pink dot, closest to=0Athe = threshold.. This called for a steep power off turn to final. With=A0=0Aa co= ntinuous steep turn from downwind I still overshot the centerline somewhat = due to the tailwind on base. Had I flown as close in as the=0Acontroller wa= nted, the overshoot would have been been much greater. With=0A2,200 hours in the aircraft including countless practice dead stick= =0Alandings and many Oshkosh arrivals I found the situation challenging.=0A= I flew on hair trigger, prepared to go around if at any point it became=0A"= uncomfortable". I am concerned for the new builders who have=0Ajust completed flying off th= e 25 hours on a high performance aircraft=0Aand are bringing it to Oshkosh = for the first time, especially=0Ainexperienced pilots who feel compelled to= do whatever the controller=0Acalls for. =A0Asking=0Athem to perform such an unusual and challenging maneuver is too= =0Adangerous. The compounding of multiple factors, following a slow=0Aaircr= aft, close in downwind, tailwind on base, close in base and last=0Aminute l= and short instruction can overload the pilot into a situation=0Awhere he is= low and slow pulling too much G in a steep turn. That could=0Aeasily end w= ith a snap roll into the ground. Fast aircraft should not be expected to fly as close in on downwind as a th= e slower aircraft.=20 The=0Acall to turn base should include the proposed touchdown point so that= =0Ahe can set the right power setting, and give the pilots at least a=0A1/3= mile final to the proposed touchdown point allowing them enough time=0Ato s= tabilize their approach. Given the wide range of experience=0Aof Oshkosh pilots, the arrival procedu= re should not ask them to do=0Athings that are dramatically different and m= ore difficult than what=0Athey do in their normal flying. Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com=0A=0A=0A --0-571479509-1250307660=:66969 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you have any comments on the Oshkosh a= rrival procedure you can send them here. My $0.02 below.

https://sec= ure.eaa.org/airventure/atc_feedback.html



Two comments.
<= br>1... I flew my Lancair 360 using the high=0Aapproach. All traffic was la= nding 27 and it was busy. The first half of=0Athe approach to Fisk went wel= l. At Fisk I was instructed to descend and=0Amerge with traffic in the low = pattern.

Merging fast with slow=0Atraffic miles from the airport out= of sight, and instructing them to=0Amaintain 1/2 mile spacing with no S tu= rns is requiring them to violate =0Afundamental limitations of physics= . The situation will get worse each=0Ayear as light sport planes proliferat= e. This is why pilots of many fast=0Aaircraft are switching to the warbird = arrival. If  that is what you=0Awant eliminate the high approach and i= nstruct fast aircraft to use the=0Awarbird arrival.

My recommendatio= n is to keep the fast and slow=0Aaircraft separated by altitude until the c= ontroller has them in sight=0Aand calls the turn to base on 27 or final on = 36 R/L. The controller can point=0Aout the aircraft to follow and there are= at least two sets of eyes=0Alooking for a potential collision instead of o= ne. You could position=0Aanother controller out at half mile final watching= the merge up close.=0AThat controller would remain silent unless a conflic= t develops.

2... =0AThere was a substantial north crosswind. t= he controller repeatedly=0Ainstructed me to fly a close in downwind, which = I refused to do as I=0Awas already at my comfort limit. The controller call= ed a very close-in=0Abase behind a slow moving Cessna. Half way through bas= e he instructed =0Athe Cessna to land long and for me to land on the p= ink dot, closest to=0Athe threshold.. This called for a steep power off tur= n to final. With =0Aa continuous steep turn from downwind I still over= shot the centerline somewhat due to the tailwind on base. Had I flown as cl= ose in as the=0Acontroller wanted, the overshoot would have been been much = greater.

With=0A2,200 hours in the aircraft including countless prac= tice dead stick=0Alandings and many Oshkosh arrivals I found the situation = challenging.=0AI flew on hair trigger, prepared to go around if at any poin= t it became=0A"uncomfortable".

I am concerned for the new builders w= ho have=0Ajust completed flying off the 25 hours on a high performance airc= raft=0Aand are bringing it to Oshkosh for the first time, especially=0Ainex= perienced pilots who feel compelled to do whatever the controller=0Acalls f= or.

 Asking=0Athem to perform such an unusual and challenging m= aneuver is too=0Adangerous. The compounding of multiple factors, following = a slow=0Aaircraft, close in downwind, tailwind on base, close in base and l= ast=0Aminute land short instruction can overload the pilot into a situation= =0Awhere he is low and slow pulling too much G in a steep turn. That could= =0Aeasily end with a snap roll into the ground.

Fast aircraft should= not be expected to fly as close in on downwind as a the slower aircraft. <= br>
The=0Acall to turn base should include the proposed touchdown point = so that=0Ahe can set the right power setting, and give the pilots at least = a=0A1/3mile final to the proposed touchdown point allowing them enough time= =0Ato stabilize their approach.

Given the wide range of experience= =0Aof Oshkosh pilots, the arrival procedure should not ask them to do=0Athi= ngs that are dramatically different and more difficult than what=0Athey do = in their normal flying.

Regards,

=0A=0A --0-571479509-1250307660=:66969--