X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 09:32:49 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.99] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2938627 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 May 2008 01:23:14 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.99; envelope-from=randystuart@hotmail.com Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.168.78]) by bay0-omc1-s27.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 25 May 2008 22:22:35 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 25 May 2008 22:22:35 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: Received: from 68.183.42.32 by BAY113-DAV6.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 26 May 2008 05:22:33 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [68.183.42.32] X-Originating-Email: [randystuart@hotmail.com] X-Sender: randystuart@hotmail.com From: "Randy" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Electronic ignition spark plugs X-Original-Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 22:22:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0543_01C8BEB5.D693D630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 May 2008 05:22:35.0520 (UTC) FILETIME=[81903800:01C8BEF0] X-Original-Return-Path: randystuart@hotmail.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0543_01C8BEB5.D693D630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott,=20 There's lots of opinions out there but I've seen with my own eyes what = auto plugs can do in an aviation engine.=20 I've seen a Lancair LNC-2 / Lycoming IO-360 destroy three Autolite 396 = plugs and take out two cylinders. Detonation. Changed to fine wire and = never had that problem again.=20 Glasair IIS / Lycoming IO-360 auto plugs ( I don't remember the number = ), they took out all four cylinders on take off, nearly killed the = pilot. Detonation. Rebuilt the plane & engine, replaced the plugs with = aviation plugs and never had a problem since.=20 Lancair Legacy / IO-550 with dual LSI's and stock Denso plugs. Coils = started shorting out ( 3 ), on inspection of the coils and plugs, the = bad coils where shorting only on one output and the plug gaps had grown = well past the original setting. The spark energy will take the path of = least resistance. IE: Thought the coil windings if it can't jump the two = plugs. We are now removing one LSI and replacing it with a mag for = safety.=20 The aviation fine wire plugs gap easily to .035 and stay there. They = don't crack under pressure, they last a long time, they don't burn down = and the heat range is right for aviation use.=20 It's true that there's allot of planes flying with auto plugs and having = no problems at all but when an airplane engine stops you can't pull over = and call AAA to tow you home. Every time I've seen an auto plug go south = it's not a minor problem, it usually takes the cylinder with it. Or an = $80 coil. And leaves you stranded.=20 For a savings of a few bucks there are many pilots that would jeopardize = their $100K ~ $500K aircraft, not to mention their life. Think about it. Randy Stuart LNC-2 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sky2high@aol.com=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Electronic ignition spark plugs Randy, What you said is, of course, contrary to my experience and the = recommendations made by Light Speed Engineering. Which plugs had "the tips burns down fast or the ceramic crack under = the pressures" and what were the pressures? Were the plugs ever = dropped? Are you sure the coils shorted internally because the auto plug gaps = were getting larger or were the coils placed in too hot of an = environment? What plugs were used? It is hard to imagine internal = coil arcing in the absence of any plug gap or even the absence of a plug = altogether. Which actual auto plugs cracked under full power and/or had the = electrodes burned away? What were the other engine conditions? I have run my 9:1 CR injected 320 at takeoff power (racing is like = that) for hours on end with no difficulty - no difficulty with either = the EI or the Denso IK27's - where the timing and A/F ratios have been = appropriate for the power and the coils are located in an area behind = the engine that usually reaches 70C. Anyway, you might find it interesting to read: = http://sparkplugs.com/pdfs/iri.pdf even if you only skip to the = conclusions at the end. You might consider getting rid of your massive electrode plugs = altogether: = http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Spark%20Plugs-Fine-Wire-vs-Ma= ssive.htm as it appears that while the fine wire plugs cost three times = as much, they also last more than 3 times as long. You may wish to poke around the web for info on the differences = betwixt Champion and Unison (Autolite) iridium plugs. BTW, I noticed that you re-gapped your aviation iridium plugs (out of = the box the gaps are too small for EIs, .016-.018.). This is a very = difficult task with Champion plugs (they are happy to re-gap them for = you). Finally, I didn't even try the LSE recommended W27EBR (27 heat rating = for higher compression engines) since they seemed too cheap. I did try = the W27EMR-C plugs (triple massive electrode), but didn't like them = because I could not control all three gaps (well, that was one reason). Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96 Aurora, IL (KARR) Pilot not TSO'd, Certificated score only > 70%. =20 Not even FAA tested for Repairman Certification. In a message dated 5/25/2008 7:24:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time, = randystuart@hotmail.com writes: In my 360 I use Iridium plugs with my Jeff Rose EI. They work great. = Set to .035.=20 I wouldn't use car plugs in an aviation engine. They don't work = well.=20 I've seen the tips burns down fast or the ceramic crack under the = pressures.=20 One multiple failure I've seen is on a friends very low time Legacy = that has had 3 shorted coils on his LSI system.=20 This was from the Denso auto plug gaps getting larger from wear then = eventually arcing inside the coil.=20 Another failure in a 360 I've seen from auto plugs is the ceramic = cracks under full power and completely burns away the electrodes, = damaging the cylinder. Aviation plugs are made for aviation use and can take the abuse. = They last much longer and rarely fail. All the Lancair's in my group = stopped using auto plugs.=20 Uppers are Massives with a mag and lowers are Iridium with an EI.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler = Florence" on AOL Food. ------=_NextPart_000_0543_01C8BEB5.D693D630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott,=20
There's lots of = opinions out=20 there but I've seen with my own eyes what auto plugs can do in an = aviation=20 engine.
I've seen a = Lancair LNC-2 /=20 Lycoming IO-360 destroy three Autolite 396 plugs and take out two = cylinders.=20 Detonation. Changed to fine wire and never had that problem again.=20
Glasair IIS / = Lycoming IO-360=20 auto plugs ( I don't remember the number ), they took out all four = cylinders on=20 take off, nearly killed the pilot. Detonation. Rebuilt the plane & = engine,=20 replaced the plugs with aviation plugs and never had a problem since.=20
Lancair Legacy / = IO-550 with=20 dual LSI's and stock Denso plugs. Coils started shorting out ( 3 ), on=20 inspection of the coils and plugs, the bad coils where shorting only on = one=20 output and the plug gaps had grown well past the original setting. The = spark=20 energy will take the path of least resistance. IE: Thought the coil = windings if=20 it can't jump the two plugs. We are now removing one LSI and replacing = it with a=20 mag for safety.
The aviation fine = wire plugs=20 gap easily to .035 and stay there. They don't crack under pressure, they = last a=20 long time, they don't burn down and the heat range is right for aviation = use.=20
It's true that = there's allot=20 of planes flying with auto plugs and having no problems at all but when = an=20 airplane engine stops you can't pull over and call AAA to tow you home. = Every=20 time I've seen an auto plug go south it's not a minor problem, it = usually takes=20 the cylinder with it. Or an $80 coil. And leaves you stranded.=20
For a savings of a = few bucks=20 there are many pilots that would jeopardize their $100K ~ $500K = aircraft, not to=20 mention their life. Think about it.
 
Randy=20 Stuart
LNC-2
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Sky2high@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:32 = PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Electronic = ignition=20 spark plugs

Randy,
 
What you said is, of course, contrary to my experience and = the=20 recommendations made by Light Speed Engineering.
 
Which plugs had "the tips burns down fast or the ceramic crack = under the=20 pressures" and what were the pressures?  Were the plugs ever=20 dropped?
 
Are you sure the coils shorted internally because the auto plug = gaps were=20 getting larger or were the coils placed in too hot of an=20 environment?    What plugs were used?  It is hard = to=20 imagine internal coil arcing in the absence of any plug gap or even = the=20 absence of a plug altogether.
 
Which actual auto plugs cracked under full power and/or had the=20 electrodes burned away?  What were the other engine = conditions?
 
I have run my 9:1 CR injected 320 at takeoff power (racing is = like that)=20 for hours on end with no difficulty - no difficulty with either the EI = or the=20 Denso IK27's - where the timing and A/F ratios have been appropriate = for the=20 power and the coils are located in an area behind the = engine that=20 usually reaches 70C.
 
Anyway, you might find it interesting to read:  http://sparkplugs.com/pdfs/ir= i.pdf even=20 if you only skip to the conclusions at the end.
 
You might consider getting rid of your massive electrode plugs=20 altogether: http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Spark%20Pl= ugs-Fine-Wire-vs-Massive.htm as=20 it appears that while the fine wire plugs cost three times as = much, they=20 also last more than 3 times as long.
 
You may wish to poke around the web for info on the differences = betwixt=20 Champion and Unison (Autolite) iridium plugs.
 
BTW,  I noticed that you re-gapped your aviation iridium = plugs (out=20 of the box the gaps are too small for EIs, .016-.018.).  This is = a very=20 difficult task with Champion plugs (they are happy to re-gap them for=20 you).
 
Finally, I didn't even try the LSE recommended W27EBR (27 heat = rating for=20 higher compression engines) since they seemed too cheap.  I did = try the=20 W27EMR-C plugs (triple massive electrode), but didn't like them = because I=20 could not control all three gaps (well, that was one reason).
 
Scott=20 Krueger AKA Grayhawk
Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96
Aurora, IL=20 (KARR)

Pilot not TSO'd, Certificated score only > 70%.  =
Not even=20 FAA tested for Repairman Certification.
 
In a message dated 5/25/2008 7:24:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 randystuart@hotmail.com writes:
In my 360=20 I use=20 Iridium plugs with my Jeff Rose EI. They work great. Set to = 035.=20
I wouldn't use = car plugs=20 in an aviation engine. They don't work well. =
I've seen the = tips burns=20 down fast or the ceramic crack under the pressures.=20
One multiple = failure I've=20 seen is on a friends very low time Legacy that has had 3 shorted = coils on=20 his LSI system.
This was from = the Denso=20 auto plug gaps getting larger from wear then eventually arcing = inside the=20 coil.
Another = failure in a 360=20 I've seen from auto plugs is the ceramic cracks under full power and = completely burns away the electrodes, damaging the=20 cylinder.
Aviation plugs = are made=20 for aviation use and can take the abuse. They last much longer and = rarely=20 fail. All the Lancair's in my group stopped using auto plugs.=20
Uppers are = Massives with a=20 mag and lowers are Iridium with an EI.
 



Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL=20 Food.
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