X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:23:49 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from smtp114.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.91] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with SMTP id 2605439 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:32:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.142.229.91; envelope-from=gbfitz@swbell.net Received: (qmail 91689 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2007 16:32:07 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=swbell.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=jnLWMA9qPk4aynp4joosOq+38WT21aGs9DXw+sZQK9TQeqmEgsmqGyfGnK9kvnjcn6iAaThh9UIufCSfNVyaMkqXMTAN5g0ruDju4nyeWtNI17hUXIfb5LKMukBl9NhBIeCQCTWs/0UtVrt4bqzglJAhAf5sjYMQN9cUpt0Q2ks= ; Received: from unknown (HELO eaglenest61) (gbfitz@swbell.net@70.130.202.183 with login) by smtp114.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2007 16:32:05 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 6OlCjMgVM1lHzQkho6DwavfIhpF3APVIx01Jk90s9a62chVkvNX4cx6Oj_L8GN3oCPAaV5YP5cRgZNOYehHF0D8A0hObWdI7Q12PwX.5z2gle3USVbYn7w-- X-Original-Message-ID: <001d01c8425c$47306ec0$4001a8c0@eaglenest61> From: "Gary Fitzgerald" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: [LML] Re: 320/360 efficiency and economy - hole in the market? X-Original-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:29:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C84229.FC004E70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1896 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C84229.FC004E70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, let's take a look at this. I was all set to agree with you until = I ran some numbers. In its day, the 320/360 was arguably the best value on the market, as = long as you didn't have to carry a big payload. The standard kit was = $20,000, and the fast-build kit was somewhere around $27,000. The = closest competitor (in cost and performance) was the Glasair II which I = seem to remember costing about $27,000 for the RG model. The 320/360 is = a legit 200 mph plane. One could argue that one of the major improvements (and cost drivers) of = the Lancair kits over the years has been the amount of pre-fabrication = done at the factory. The Legacy has far less fabrication than even the = fast-build version of the 320/360, and can't even be seriously compared = to the amount of fabrication in the standard build kits (trust me on = this one). This actually applies across the entire line of kits, as any = early L-IV builder can verify. Using the split kit ES with the fast-build options as a basis ($51,800 = in 1996) the E-glass 320/360 fast build kit would probably cost around = $43,000 today. When you cross reference other kit manufacturers, you = get similar numbers (a standard build RV-6A kit was about $10K in 1996 = and an RV-7A standard kit today sells for about $19K). A quick browse = of the Lancair website shows that they do indeed offer a 200+ mph kit = that uses a 4-cylinder engine for around $40K - the Legacy FG. So where would an updated version of the 320/360 kit fall in the Lancair = lineup? How much pre-fabrication would the factory have to knock out of = the kit to drop the price to, say, the $35,000 neighborhood? Is the end = product a kit that the marketplace would tolerate? As for the $200K Legacy, well, if you throw dual Cheltons on the panel, = get a Reno-ready engine with an MT prop firewall-forward package, and = get someone else to put it all together for you, yeah, you can hit = $200K. However, if you start with a $60K Legacy kit, do 2 weeks of = builder support at the factory ($8K), use an overhauled engine (rebuilt = Lyc 540's and Cont. 520's are all over Trade-A-Plane for $25-30K, so = lets use $30K) still use that MT prop (~$11K from Lancair), use decent = quality tradional flight instruments for about $11K (and that includes a = single axis autopiliot), buy basic IFR radio stack for about another = $12K (which includes a Garmin 430), and 3K should cover your engine = instrumentation, and (here's the key) ACTUALLY BUILD THE PLANE YOURSELF, = you get a total of $135K, which leaves $65K for a paint job and interior = before you hit $200K. Going up to a rebuilt Cont. 550 would add $13K = ($43K from Lancair). On the other hand, you could also subtract a bunch = if you got really creative with your engine choice. Gary Fitzgerald LNC2 extra-slow build ~70% engine: TBD St. Charles, MO Has Lancair left a hole in the market place? =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C84229.FC004E70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, let's take a look at this.  = I was all=20 set to agree with you until I ran some numbers.
 
In its day, the 320/360 was = arguably the best=20 value on the market, as long as you didn't have to carry a big = payload. =20 The standard kit was $20,000, and the fast-build kit was somewhere = around=20 $27,000.  The closest competitor (in cost and performance) was = the=20 Glasair II which I seem to remember costing about $27,000 for the RG=20 model.  The 320/360 is a legit 200 mph plane.
 
One could argue that one of the major = improvements=20 (and cost drivers) of the Lancair kits over the years has been the = amount of=20 pre-fabrication done at the factory.  The Legacy has far = less=20 fabrication than even the fast-build version of the 320/360, and = can't even=20 be seriously compared to the amount of fabrication in the standard build = kits=20 (trust me on this one).  This actually applies across the entire = line of=20 kits, as any early L-IV builder can verify.
 
Using the split kit ES with the = fast-build=20 options as a basis ($51,800 in 1996) the E-glass 320/360 fast build kit = would=20 probably cost around $43,000 today.  When you cross reference other = kit=20 manufacturers, you get similar numbers (a standard build RV-6A kit was = about=20 $10K in 1996 and an RV-7A standard kit today sells for about = $19K).  A=20 quick browse of the Lancair website shows that they do indeed offer a = 200+ mph=20 kit that uses a 4-cylinder engine for around $40K - the Legacy = FG.
 
So where would an updated version of = the 320/360=20 kit fall in the Lancair lineup?  How much pre-fabrication would the = factory=20 have to knock out of the kit to drop the price to, say, the $35,000=20 neighborhood?  Is the end product a kit that the = marketplace=20 would tolerate?
 
As for the $200K Legacy, well, if you = throw dual=20 Cheltons on the panel, get a Reno-ready engine with an MT prop = firewall-forward=20 package, and get someone else to put it all together for you, yeah, you = can hit=20 $200K.  However, if you start with a $60K Legacy kit, do 2 weeks of = builder=20 support at the factory ($8K), use an overhauled engine (rebuilt Lyc = 540's and=20 Cont. 520's are all over Trade-A-Plane for $25-30K, so lets use $30K) = still use=20 that MT prop  (~$11K from Lancair), use decent quality tradional = flight=20 instruments for about $11K (and that includes a single axis=20 autopiliot), buy basic IFR radio stack for about another $12K = (which=20 includes a Garmin 430), and 3K should cover your engine instrumentation, = and=20 (here's the key) ACTUALLY BUILD THE PLANE YOURSELF, you get a total of = $135K,=20 which leaves $65K for a paint job and interior before you hit = $200K.  Going=20 up to a rebuilt Cont. 550 would add $13K ($43K from Lancair).  On = the other=20 hand, you could also subtract a bunch if you got really creative with = your=20 engine choice.
 
Gary Fitzgerald
LNC2 extra-slow = build=20 ~70%
engine: TBD
St. Charles, MO
 

Has Lancair left a hole = in the=20 market place? 

 

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