X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 21:26:58 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mxsf42.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.28.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.9) with ESMTP id 1084424 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:04:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.225.28.174; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from mxip21a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip21a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.151]) by mxsf42.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k3SG3UCG008410 for ; Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:03:30 -0400 Received: from 68-184-229-22.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com (HELO axs) ([68.184.229.22]) by mxip21a.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 2006 12:03:30 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <008101c66add$4b9a7c10$6501a8c0@axs> From: "terrence o'neill" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] AOA X-Original-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:03:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007E_01C66AB3.624299E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C66AB3.624299E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, Im's so old I carrier-qualified in SNJ-7s in 1954 on the USS = Monterrey, controlled by watching the LSO's paddles, and before AOAs, = which came in three years later, the year I got out. The Navy didn't = know about or teach AOAs or the meatball back then, but also a lot of = guys in the fleet were flying into the fantail or stalling and falling = into the water... because carrier approach speeds had gone from 90 knots = to 130 knots, and there wasn't time for the LSO and pilot -- when they = were close enough to each other to see LSO signals, to communicate the = condition of the plane flying so close to stall AOA. The Brits invented = the AOA-fresnel system we adopted in 1956 , and have used for 40 years, = to this day... as you know... with wonderful, life-saving instant = results... cutting landing crashed 50% the very first year, and we're = talking very professional, top-quality trained pilots here. I have to point out a few things in your comments, if you don't = mind. Maybe you haven't thought about them in just this way. Keep your = mind open, so you can consider shifting your attitude a little. What = you say is true, but I think -- incomplete. You're talking about = avoiding danger. I'm talking about getting out of situations that are = already BAD. I spent a lot of time many years ago reading 800 NTSB accident = reports involving GenAv with fatalities that covered a 14 year period, = and I also referenced Navy publications on the subject. No commercial = or military fatalities, or helicopter accidents were included in my = study. I evaluated, then analyzed the results, and wrote an 8-page = article for Kitplanes Magazine published in December, 1998. The = Kitplanes editor then was Dave Martin, who had hundreds of traps as a = back-seater in F4s, and loved the article. I found the NTSB is not at all uniform in analyzing or labelling the = CAUSE of a fatal accidents. They still are not. So for my study I = first defined a uniform fatal-accident-'cause' as: the last thing that = happens before a pilot loses control or crashes into something. Thus, = engine failure is not a 'cause', because he could still glide and land = with no fatality. But inadvertant stalling, or spinning and unable to = recover before flying into something, or a wing coming off a P210, I = label a 'cause'.. Etc. Okay? . That agreed to, then I found that for the 14 years prior to my 1998 = study, 28% of all general aviation type-certified airplanes 5222 fatal = accidents were caused by unintentional stalls. Twenty-eight percent! = In the same time frame, among Experimental amateur-builts' 701 fatal = accidents, 45.3% or 318 were caused by unintentional stalls. Forty-five = percen t! These rates had remained practically unchanged during the 14 = years covered by the reports I analyzed.=20 =20 You said: The airspeed indicator was neither accurate enough nor quick enough = to handle these kinds of approaches. There simply is no reason for any = experienced civilian pilot to get anywhere near stall speed low except = in a flare over the runway and therefore no need for the kind of = precision and quick response afforded by an AOA. That's true. Bujt your phrase '...there is simply no reason ...' is = the -- incomplete consideration here. Accidents don't happen because = someone's doing something 'reasonable'; but often quite the opposite. = Or, as the bumper sticker says "Shit happens!" --- usually when you're = concentrating on something else, or just having a good time, or you are = confronting a vacuum-system failure and a vomiting backseater, a = 'revolting development', a Jimmy Durante used to say. Then what? THEN, you NEED to see how close you can fly your wing to its stall = angle, without stalling it, because you don't want to hit the damn = trees, or whatever...right? =20 Without an AOA VANE (not lights or horns), you're SOL. You're = BLIND! =20 With an AOA vane, you can fly your wing ONE DEGREE below its stall = AOA, all afternoon long, NOT stall your wing, not hit the trees, make it = back to the runway. Then you also note, correctly but incompletely -- ... non-military pilots have a problem with understanding aircraft = performance at high angles of bank and high g loadings. We get the idea = of how to avoid 1g stalls in the pattern fairly quickly but I see report = after report of experienced pilots stalling out while pulling high g's = low or trying to get to a runway after an engine failure by doing a very = steep turn and not understanding what happens to sink rate if you do = that. True. But it's not 'sink rate'. It's AOA. The wing stalls at a fixed = AOA, no matter what the Gs or bank angle. These folks are stalling out = because they're AIR-BLIND ... they can not SEE that they themselves are = pulling their wing's AOA right past it's stall AOA. When they do that, = they're committing unintentional-suicide, because they are giving away = control! Because they have no AOA vane, to SEE exactly how far they can = go ... how much lift they can tap into.. I have been flying with an AOA since 1964, and oh, what a relief it is. = I can bank as steeply as I want, anywhere, while watching the AOA, so I = do not pull the wing to its stall angle. =20 After four years flying in the Navy i though i knew a lot about how an = airplane works. Then I bought the last Waco TC project and restored = it, and began flight-testing ... and realized I needed to know what was = going on with the wing in different tests. So I made myself a simple = AOA vane, like Orville and Wilbur's thread, and put it on the left wing, = in my field of vision, and -- was soon saying to myself "I didn't = realize that!" For example, I realized that if the wing is pitch-trimmed about it's = aerodynamic center --- usually about 25% MAC -- and you initiate a climb = or a glide and release the controls, it will; not stall. It may zoom or = dive but the pitch trim sets the wing's AOA, and holds the trimmed AOA. = Most planes will not trim the AOA up to the wing's stall AOA... so it's = the PILOT who causes a stall, by pulling the wing up past its stall AOA. I remember the joy of realizing that that afternoon, and then flying my = old Waco around for 45 minutes, one degree befow its stall AOA, = climbing, zooming, making 90-degree banks, and pulling Gs or zero Gs... = and never stalling! So I wrote articles for Sport Aviation, and magazines, and even made = some AOAs and sold them... and for 20+ years have been trying to get = this basic, simple knowledge to other pilots. But 99% of them -- = syllabus-trained -- don't get it. They just don't get it! A few = ultralight guys love the AOAs, (not trained wrong by FAA guidelines?) = and a couple of airline pilots told me they're trying to get their = bosses to put AOAs into their planes, but most folks fly by rote, by = habits they learned at the beginning. Airspeedairspeedairspeed. It is = just -- pathetic, to see good people, people I like, kill themselves, = and leave their devastated loving family and friends behind.=20 Can anyone tell me how to force the FAA to REQUIRE GenAv aircraft, old = and new, to put AOA VANES ... the most BASIC of all flight instruments = of AIR-PLANES ... vehicles that 'plane' their wings at angles through = the air, to lift themselves up... not going to too high a 'stall' AOA = ...??? Or, how to communicate and demonstrate the life-saving safety = this simple device, that anyone can make, that it should be on every = air-plane? The FAA could buy and give away and pay to have glued on every GenAv's = wing an AOA, for pennies, what they blow on 'safety' every year ... and = cut fatalities 25% the first year! Back in the 1960s I wrote Najeeb = Halaby, then FAA director, and he referred me to the FAA's petulant head = safety guy ... who was incensed that the suggestion came from the = top-down to him ... and that was the end of that. So, if you -- like me -- think you know how airplanes really work, I = challenge you to put an AOA vane on your left wing and go up and play = with it. Not only willit tell you what your fixed stall angle is, but it will = tell you exactly how much you have to pitch the AOA DOWN, to unstall it, = with minimum altitude loss! Opinions and comments are invited. Terrence O'Neill L235/320 N211AL ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C66AB3.624299E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
    = Im's so old=20 I carrier-qualified in SNJ-7s in 1954 on the USS Monterrey, = controlled by=20 watching the LSO's paddles, and before AOAs, which came in three years = later,=20 the year I got out.  The Navy didn't know about or teach AOAs = or the=20 meatball back then, but also a lot of guys in the fleet were flying into = the=20 fantail or stalling and falling into the water... because carrier = approach=20 speeds had gone from 90 knots to 130 knots, and there wasn't time for = the LSO=20 and pilot -- when they were close enough to each other to see LSO = signals, to=20 communicate the condition of the plane flying so close to stall = AOA.  The=20 Brits invented the AOA-fresnel system we adopted in 1956 , and have = used=20 for 40 years,  to this day... as you know... with wonderful, = life-saving=20 instant results... cutting landing crashed 50% the very first year, and = we're=20 talking very professional, top-quality trained pilots here.
 
    = I have to=20 point out a few things in your comments, if you don't mind.  Maybe = you=20 haven't thought about them in just this way. Keep your mind open, so you = can=20 consider shifting your attitude a little.  What you say is true, = but I=20 think -- incomplete.  You're talking about avoiding danger.  = I'm=20 talking about getting out of situations that are already = BAD.
 
    = I spent a=20 lot of time many years ago reading  800 NTSB accident reports = involving=20 GenAv with fatalities that covered  a 14 year period, and I also = referenced=20 Navy publications on the subject.  No commercial or military = fatalities, or=20 helicopter accidents were included in my study.   I = evaluated,=20 then analyzed the results, and wrote an 8-page article for Kitplanes = Magazine=20 published in December, 1998.  The Kitplanes editor then was Dave = Martin,=20 who had hundreds of traps as a back-seater in F4s, and loved the=20 article.
    = I found the=20 NTSB is not at all uniform in analyzing or labelling the CAUSE of a = fatal=20 accidents.  They still are not.  So for my study I first=20 defined a uniform fatal-accident-'cause' as: the last thing = that=20 happens before a pilot loses control or crashes into = something. =20 Thus, engine failure is not a 'cause', because he could still glide and = land=20 with no fatality.  But inadvertant stalling, or spinning and unable = to=20 recover before flying into something, or a wing coming off a P210, = I label=20 a 'cause'..  Etc. Okay?  .
    = That agreed=20 to, then I found that for the 14 years prior to my 1998 study, 28% of = all=20 general aviation type-certified airplanes 5222 fatal accidents were = caused by=20 unintentional stalls.  Twenty-eight percent!   In the = same time=20 frame, among Experimental amateur-builts' 701 fatal accidents, 45.3% or=20 318 were caused by unintentional stalls.  Forty-five percen = t! =20 These rates had remained practically unchanged during the 14 years = covered by=20 the reports I analyzed. 
   =20
You = said:
     The airspeed indicator was = neither=20 accurate enough nor quick enough to handle these kinds of = approaches. =20 There simply is no reason for any experienced civilian pilot to get = anywhere=20 near stall speed low except in a flare over the runway and therefore no = need for=20 the kind of precision and quick response afforded by an=20 AOA.

    That's true.  Bujt your = phrase=20 '...there is simply no reason ...' is the -- incomplete consideration=20 here.  Accidents don't happen because someone's doing something=20 'reasonable'; but often quite the opposite.  Or, as the bumper sticker says=20 "Shit happens!" --- usually when you're concentrating on something = else, or=20 just having a good time, or you are confronting a vacuum-system failure = and a=20 vomiting backseater, a 'revolting development', a Jimmy Durante = used to=20 say.  Then what?
    = THEN, you=20 NEED to see how close you can fly your wing to its stall angle, without = stalling=20 it, because you don't want to hit the damn trees, or=20 whatever...right?  
    = Without an=20 AOA VANE (not lights or horns), you're SOL.  You're BLIND! =20
    = With an AOA=20 vane, you can fly your wing ONE DEGREE below its stall AOA, all = afternoon long,=20 NOT stall your wing, not hit the trees, make it back to the = runway.
 
Then you also note, = correctly=20 but incompletely --
 ...=20 non-military pilots have a problem with understanding aircraft = performance at=20 high angles of bank and high g loadings.  We get the idea of how to = avoid=20 1g stalls in the pattern fairly quickly but I see report after report of = experienced pilots stalling out while pulling high g's low or trying to = get to a=20 runway after an engine failure by doing a very steep turn and not = understanding=20 what happens to sink rate if you do that.
 
True.  But it's not 'sink rate'.  It's = AOA.  The=20 wing stalls at a fixed AOA, no matter what the Gs or bank angle.  = These=20 folks are stalling out because they're AIR-BLIND ... they can  = not SEE=20 that they themselves are pulling their wing's AOA right past it's stall=20 AOA.  When they do that, they're committing unintentional-suicide, = because=20 they are giving away control!  Because they have no AOA vane, to=20 SEE exactly how far they can go ... how much lift they can tap=20 into..
I have been flying with an = AOA since 1964,=20 and oh, what a relief it is.  I can bank as steeply as I want, = anywhere,=20 while watching the AOA, so I do not pull the wing to its stall = angle. =20
After four years flying in the Navy i though = i knew a=20 lot about how an airplane works.   Then I bought the last Waco = TC=20 project and restored it, and began flight-testing ... and realized I = needed to=20 know what was going on with the wing in different tests.  So I made = myself=20 a simple AOA vane, like Orville and Wilbur's thread, and put it on = the left=20 wing, in my field of vision, and -- was soon saying to myself "I didn't = realize=20 that!"
 
For example, I realized that if the wing is=20 pitch-trimmed about it's aerodynamic center --- usually about 25% MAC -- = and you=20 initiate a climb or a glide and release the controls, it will; not = stall. =20 It may zoom or dive but the pitch trim sets the wing's AOA, and = holds the=20 trimmed AOA.  Most planes will not trim the AOA up to the = wing's stall=20 AOA...  so it's the PILOT who causes a stall, by pulling the wing = up past=20 its stall AOA.
I remember the  joy of realizing that = that=20 afternoon, and then flying my old Waco around for 45 minutes, one degree = befow=20 its stall AOA, climbing, zooming, making = 90-degree=20 banks, and pulling Gs or zero Gs... and never stalling!
 
So I wrote articles for Sport Aviation, and = magazines,=20 and even made some AOAs and sold them... and for 20+ years have been = trying to=20 get this basic, simple knowledge to other pilots.  But 99% of them = --=20 syllabus-trained -- don't get it.  They just don't get it!  A = few=20 ultralight guys love the AOAs, (not trained wrong by FAA guidelines?) = and a=20 couple of airline pilots told me they're trying to get their bosses = to put=20 AOAs into their planes, but most folks fly by rote, by habits they = learned at=20 the beginning.  Airspeedairspeedairspeed.  It is just -- = pathetic, to=20 see good people, people I like, kill themselves, and leave their = devastated=20 loving family and friends behind.
 
Can anyone tell me how to force the FAA to = REQUIRE=20 GenAv aircraft, old and new, to put AOA VANES ... the most BASIC of all = flight=20 instruments of AIR-PLANES ... vehicles that 'plane' their wings at = angles=20 through the air, to lift themselves up... not going to too high a = 'stall' AOA ...???  = Or, how to=20 communicate and demonstrate the life-saving safety this simple device, = that=20 anyone can make, that it should be on every air-plane?
 
The FAA could buy and give away and pay to = have glued=20 on every GenAv's wing an AOA, for pennies, what they blow on 'safety' = every year=20 ... and cut fatalities 25% the first year!  Back=20 in the 1960s I wrote Najeeb Halaby, then FAA director, and he referred = me to the=20 FAA's petulant head safety guy ... who was incensed that the suggestion = came=20 from the  top-down to him ... and that was the end of = that.
 
So, if you -- like me -- think you know how = airplanes=20 really work, I challenge you to put an AOA vane on your left wing and go = up and=20 play with it.
Not only willit tell you what your fixed = stall angle=20 is, but it will tell you exactly how much you have to pitch the AOA = DOWN, to=20 unstall it, with minimum altitude loss!
Opinions and comments are = invited.
Terrence O'Neill
L235/320 N211AL
 
 
 
 
 


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