From: "Marvin Kaye" <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: Legacy stalls
To: lml
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:35:36 -0400
Message-ID: <web-682837@logan.com>
In-Reply-To: <17E9FE5945A57A41B4D8C07737DB60721981B6@PDX-MX6.stoel.com>
References: <17E9FE5945A57A41B4D8C07737DB60721981B6@PDX-MX6.stoel.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Posted for "Halle, John" <JJHALLE@stoel.com>:

  With a little over 400 hrs in Legacy's, I may be one of the more experienced
L2K-drivers at this point so let me comment on John's eperience.  I did stalls
in the factory demo Legacy before I bought mine.  They were fairly abrupt and
had limited warning in the form of buffet.  On the other hand, warning signals
were all over the place including seriously mushy controls, power off, nose
high.  It seemed to me that it would be hard for a pilot with any significant
experience to stall inadvertently.  For those worried about it, an AOA with
audio warning should do the trick.  Recovery was also within normal
tolerances.  I did not experience either the 90 degree pitchdown or 90 degree
roll described in John's account.  One of the things that this leads me to
believe is that stall characteristics may vary depending on a/c loading or
entry technique.
  
  In my own airplane, with Don Goetz on board, we did an approach to stall.
  The purpose of this, which I believe is useful, was to demonstrate that this
particualr plane can be flown in controlled flight at 59 Kts.  Below that, I
do not know and do not want to find out.  Both my sense and Don's was that 59
was about the edge.  I hasten to add that that number applies to my airplane
loaded as it was on that day and may not apply to any other (which is why we
did the maneuver.)
  
  On landing approach, I try for 100Kts on final if it is seriously gusty, 90
if not.  Short field, I try to get it down to 85 over the fence.  For at least
a year, and much against Don's excellent advice, I landed way too fast,
largely because I was uncomfortable with the nose so high that I could not see
straight down the runway.  My landings improved dramatically when I got used
to that and I now touch down somewhere in the mid 60's.  Given that I
decelerate from 85 within a few feet of the runway, I am not concerned with
stall although I have never had a problem and have never actually stalled
before landing.  Those who have done stalls in Legacies will remember that it
takes quite a bit of coaxing to get them into one.  I don't think it is a
problem and I doubt Mel was too worried about the airplane.  As someone who
has taken a deep breath and let someone else try to land my airplane on a few
occasions, I can attest to the fact that it is a scary proposition.  The other
pilot may be an ace but it is hard to be sure and they damn sure don't know
how to land Legacies.
  
  The reason to be worried about stalls is that there is not just one kind of
stall.  As noted, John and I did stalls in the same airplane and had different
experiences.  The problem is that some of these experiences could lead to
spins (especially if you are kicking in rudder to counteract roll) and no one
has done the kind of testing that would determine how serious a spin is and
what the proper recovery technique is.  Columbia had a test pilot bail out
from an unrecoverable spin and Cirrus either couldn't or elected not to
demonstrate spin recovery.  One of the prices we pay for the performance we
get is a wing that is not necessarily designed for best performance in spin
recovery.  Combined with the almost complete lack of data on what actually
happens in a spin, this tells me that spins are to be avoided.  The only way I
know of to do that reliably is not to stall.
  
  Minor note on rudder control:  it is really hard to get used to at first and
gave me fits.  I don't know if the new pedals will help but they might.  You
get used to it in a few hours and it is not a problem after that.
  
  The Legacy is a SUPER airplane with EXCELLENT flying characteristics
throughout the envelope.  Outside the envelope, I don't know.  I deal with
that by not going there.  I would not advise it for a 50 hr. pilot (or anyone
else who can't tell when his airplane is approaching a stall) but for anyone
else, it is a joy and I feel absolutely safe in it.  For all I know, it spins
like a champ.  I just don't want to be the one to find out.
  
  John, if you want to rethink your decision, come fly with me sometime.  I
won't do stalls with you but I bet I can convince you that the Legacy is not
the handful you are worried it is.