X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:55:37 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([205.188.139.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0c1) with ESMTP id 679001 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:50:06 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.139.136; envelope-from=VTAILJEFF@aol.com Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r4.1.) id q.1fb.f47a9b1 (48624) for ; Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:49:15 -0400 (EDT) From: VTAILJEFF@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <1fb.f47a9b1.303c916b@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:49:15 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Single Pilot IFR X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1124808555" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1124808555 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/23/2005 8:50:07 A.M. Central Standard Time, JJHALLE@stoel.com writes: This is going to sound like I am against "training". I am not. In fact, I am all for it IF it is not relied on to do more than it can do. The sad fact is that lack of training is not what kills most GA pilots. Also on balance, training is not a problem (the average Lancair pilot is, by quite a wide margin, more skilled and better informed than the average GA pilot.) I respectfully disagree with your statement regarding training. I am a designated pilot examiner and I have been a flight instructor for over 20 years and have been affiliated with the American Bonanza Society (ABS) for over ten of those years and now with HPAT giving flight training in the LIVP. Most of the pilots I see in these training situations have been just getting a BFR every two years, if that. IMHO this is not enough training to stay proficient in a IV or IVP. Perhaps fewer than 10% of the Lancair owner pilots get annual recurrent training from a qualified HPAT instructor. This was true of the ABS membership. Why is that so? Most pilots think that a private pilot ticket is all the training they need. Let's see-- that was 20 hours of required training probably 20 years ago with a 20 year old instructor and then an occasional ride with another pimply faced 20 year old flight instructor. Occasionally I am called by a potential client to give a quote on training for a IVP. They usually say that they want the best training in the industry, yadda, yadda, yadda. When I give them a quote (about $750/ day) they are off looking for some kid building time for the airline job. In other words a high net worth individual who is at he top of his game wants me, who is at the top of mine, to give him the benefit of my 30 years of experience for less than I pay my lawn boy. Have you priced FlightSafety or SIMCOM lately? Depending on the program its north of $1000/day. If you want to pay an instructor $20/ hour you are going to get one worth $20/hour-- that simple. The average GA pilot is poorly equipped to handle a C-172 on a good day much less a LIVP on a crummy one. Many pilots have been trained to the minimum standards of 14CFR61-- Don't believe me? Have you flown into OSH during the show lately or listened to the tower freq. at your local airport sometime. What does the typical pilot client need? Many of the pilots coming to HPAT or the ABS program need additional training on single pilot IFR skills and require a lot of time in the pattern. Some have never been taught how to do an engine out landing.-- see Don Barnes earlier post) IFR skills are perishable. Can we teach judgement or risk management?-- yes, we teach it at HPAT. I geve a course in it last year at the fly-in. Does everyone pass the test?-- no. This kind of training takes time over many sessions and many lessons-- something the average GA guy does not want to do. I do not mean to be condescending to anyone here because there are pilots who do value training and do get recurrent training often-- but they are few and far between. Regards, Jeff Edwards LIVP -------------------------------1124808555 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 8/23/2005 8:50:07 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 JJHALLE@stoel.com writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>This is=20 going to sound like I am against "training".  I am not.  In fact= , I=20 am all for it IF it is not relied on to do more than it can do.  The=20= sad=20 fact is that lack of training is not what kills most GA pilots. Also=20= on=20 balance, training is not a problem (the average Lancair pilot is, by quite= a=20 wide margin, more skilled and better informed than the average GA=20 pilot.)
I respectfully disagree with your statement regarding training. I am a=20 designated pilot examiner and I have been a flight instructor for over 20 ye= ars=20 and have been affiliated with the American Bonanza Society (ABS) for over te= n of=20 those years and now with HPAT giving flight training in the LIVP. Most of th= e=20 pilots I see in these training situations have been just getting a BFR every= two=20 years, if that. IMHO this is not enough training to stay proficient in a IV=20= or=20 IVP.  Perhaps fewer than 10% of the Lancair owner pilots get annual=20 recurrent training from a qualified HPAT instructor. This was true of the AB= S=20 membership.
 
Why is that so? Most pilots think that a private pilot ticket is all th= e=20 training they need. Let's see-- that was 20 hours of required training proba= bly=20 20 years ago with a 20 year old instructor and then an occasional ride with=20 another pimply faced 20 year old flight instructor.
 
Occasionally I am  called by a potential client to give a quote on= =20 training for a IVP. They usually say that they want the best training in the= =20 industry, yadda, yadda, yadda. When I give them a quote (about $750/ day) th= ey=20 are off looking for some kid building time for the airline job. In other wor= ds a=20 high net worth individual who is at he top of his game wants me, who is at t= he=20 top of mine, to give him the benefit of my 30 years of experience for less t= han=20 I pay my lawn boy. Have you priced FlightSafety or SIMCOM lately? = =20 Depending on the program its north of $1000/day. If you want to pay an=20 instructor $20/ hour you are going to get one worth $20/hour-- that simple.=20
 
The average GA pilot is poorly equipped to handle a C-172 on a good day= =20 much less a LIVP on a crummy one. Many pilots have been trained to the minim= um=20 standards of 14CFR61-- Don't believe me? Have you flown into OSH during the=20= show=20 lately or  listened to the tower freq. at your local airport=20 sometime.
 
What does the typical pilot client need? Many of the pilots coming to H= PAT=20 or the ABS program  need additional training on single pilot IFR skills= and=20 require a lot of time in the pattern. Some have never been taught how to do=20= an=20 engine out landing.-- see Don Barnes earlier post) IFR skills are perishable= .=20
 
Can we teach judgement or risk management?-- yes, we teach it at HPAT.=20= I=20 geve a course in it last year at the fly-in. Does everyone pass the tes= t?--=20 no. This kind of training takes time over many sessions and many lesson= s--=20 something the average GA guy does not want to do. I do not mean to be=20 condescending to anyone here because there are pilots who do value training=20= and=20 do get recurrent training often-- but they are few and far between.
 
Regards,
 
Jeff Edwards
LIVP
 
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