Return-Path: Sender: (Marvin Kaye) To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:19:12 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b1) with ESMTP id 3132086 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:12:40 -0500 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id q.146.2583a2c0 (25305) for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:12:37 -0500 (EST) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: <146.2583a2c0.2d98c3f5@aol.com> X-Original-Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:12:37 EST Subject: Re: [LML] Re: relative temps? A more technical exchange. X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1080519157" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 810 -------------------------------1080519157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:51:02 PM Central Standard Time, marv@lancaironline.net writes: Interesting. George, You bet it's interesting. Either my writing is too obtuse or opaque or I left something out. You responded to my historical setup: <<<>>>> I did see vast improvement on the original setup with 9:1 pistons. After my engine was rebuilt (again with 9:1 pistons), there was a clear problem with the LASAR system which was identified after I installed the switch that enabled me to run mags only or EI only. The new sensor mag could not be set properly, resulting in initial timing of 29* BTDC (should be 25*). Thus, any advancement by the LASAR was on top of that. More recently, that sensor mag was replaced with another that could only be timed to 27* BTDC - still a little advanced before the EI adds its own - exactly why I am running the advance-conservative O-360 CU. So, I agree with the technical commentary that too early timing can defeat the performance objective. <<<<<<>>>>>>> I can buy that. What about torque? I remember that HP = (Torque x RPM)/5252, the reason that HP and Torque curves cross at 5252 RPM, something I hope to never see with my little engine that could. After all, the constant speed prop sees torque for prop pitch management and the torque plot for 1 revolution of a 4 cylinder engine is rather torturous - especially the dip during compression. Who knows what the "harmonic damper" does to the CS prop except that it is "better" because of reducing the impact of that dip. Hmmm, I must remember to switch the GPS to Km for better accuracy. Then: <<<<<>>>>> Exactly. That is what led to my comment about a timing compromise by the manufacturer. This may be somewhat true for the 320 also. One person has told me that the Lightspeed EI can be obtained with the ability to alter the timing and he has seen increased takeoff (full power) performance by slightly retarding the spark to something like 22* BTDC for that operation. <<<<>>>> Yeah, right now I am just poking around in the dark since the timing maps are Unison "proprietary" information - as though someone would copy them..... <<<<>>>>> As I said in the post you are responding to, 1280-1290 and 15.4 gph. Note that the fuel flow could be less than accurate. After a long flight, the EPI totalizer will claim I used about 5% more fuel than that measured by those very accurate fill-up trucks (this includes same truck at the same airport on the same day). Of course, that was not flown at WOT. However, I will record more environmental data (Baro, Palt, OAT) when I collect this information next time, including WOT lo altitude runs with and w/o LASAR. Thanks for keeping at this, Scott Krueger -------------------------------1080519157 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 3/28/2004 4:51:02 PM Central Standard Time,=20 marv@lancaironline.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D2>Interesting.
George,
 
You bet it's interesting.
 
Either my writing is too obtuse or opaque or I left something out.
 
You responded to my historical setup:
 
<<<<I suspect the reason you did not see improvement in=20 performance after
the 9:1 pistons on the LASAR was because it was=20 timing  much  to early,
and that was corrected during the=20 subsequent magneto
replacement/shuffle.
>>>>>
 
I did see vast improvement on the original setup with 9:1 pistons. = ;=20 After my engine was rebuilt (again with 9:1 pistons), there was a clear prob= lem=20 with the LASAR system which was identified after I installed the switch that= =20 enabled me to run mags only or EI only.  The new sensor mag could not b= e=20 set properly, resulting in initial timing of 29* BTDC (should be 25*). Thus,= any=20 advancement by the LASAR was on top of that.  More recently, that senso= r=20 mag was replaced with another that could only be timed to 27* BTDC - still a= =20 little advanced before the EI adds its own - exactly why I am running t= he=20 advance-conservative O-360 CU.  So, I agree with the technical commenta= ry=20 that too early timing can defeat the performance objective.
 
<<<<<<<At high power ... changing the spark timing= =20 over a  range of  plus/minus
3 or 4 degrees off of  Max Br= ake=20 Torque (MBT) timing has remarkably
SMALL effects on Hp.  Almost=20 unnoticeable to a pilot.
>>>>>>>>
 
I can buy that.  What about torque?  I remember that HP =3D (= Torque=20 x RPM)/5252, the reason that HP and Torque curves cross at 5252 RPM, somethi= ng I=20 hope to never see with my little engine that could.  After all, the=20 constant speed prop sees torque for prop pitch management and the torque plo= t=20 for 1 revolution of a 4 cylinder engine is rather torturous - especiall= y=20 the dip during compression.  Who knows what the "harmonic damper" does=20= to=20 the CS prop except that it is "better" because of reducing the impact of tha= t=20 dip.  Hmmm, I must remember to switch the GPS to Km for better=20 accuracy.
 
Then:
 
<<<<<<This concept is almost universally mis-understo= od=20 by engine builders.
For example,  most IO-520 and 550 TCM engines ar= e=20 OVER timed at full
power and would actually make a bit more Hp if the tim= ing=20 was retarded
slightly.
>>>>>>
 
Exactly.  That is what led to my comment about a timing compromise= by=20 the manufacturer.  This may be somewhat true for the 320 also.  On= e=20 person has told me that the Lightspeed EI can be obtained with the ability t= o=20 alter the timing and he has seen increased takeoff (full power) performance=20= by=20 slightly retarding the spark to something like 22* BTDC for that=20 operation.
 
<<<<<At lower power settings,  the engines are a bi= t=20 more sensitive to
optimal timing to achieve  MBT, as compared to&nbs= p;=20 full power operation.
>>>>>
 
Yeah, right now I am just poking around in the dark since the timing ma= ps=20 are Unison "proprietary" information - as though someone would copy=20 them.....
 
<<<<<What do your EGTs run at full power on take off=20 ?   At what fuel flow?
>>>>>>
 
As I said in the post you are responding to, 1280-1290 and 15.4 gph.&nb= sp;=20 Note that the fuel flow could be less than accurate.  After a long flig= ht,=20 the EPI totalizer will claim I used about 5% more fuel than that measured by= =20 those very accurate fill-up trucks (this includes same truck at the same air= port=20 on the same day).  Of course, that was not flown at WOT.  However,= I=20 will record more environmental data (Baro, Palt, OAT) when I collect th= is=20 information next time, including WOT lo altitude runs with and w/o=20 LASAR.
 
Thanks for keeping at this,
 
Scott Krueger
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